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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Jackinthegreen" data-source="post: 6184044" data-attributes="member: 6678119">There is a third ACF used to allow for spontaneous casting: The Spontaneous Divination ACF found in Complete Champion, page 52.  That one is compatible with either the Domain or Elven Generalist wizard variant, but of note is it can only be taken in place of a feat at 5th, 10th, 15th, or 20th levels.  To quote it, if I may:To work at 1st level, the <a href="http://dndtools.eu/feats/races-of-the-dragon--83/versatile-spellcaster--3057/" target="_blank">Versatile Spellcaster</a> trick would need another way of spontaneously casting spells which neither the Domain nor Elven Generalist wizard variants provide.  Likewise, no other ACFs I know of for Wizards in regular printed books besides a <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#spontaneousDispelling" target="_blank">specialist Abjurer</a> variant allows for spontaneously casting spells, and since that one can't be taken with the Domain Elven Generalist or get the ability to spontaneously cast at 1st level, it cannot be part of the build.  If anyone knows of a wizard variant in the regular books (so no Dragon Mag stuff) besides Spontaneous Divination or Spontaneous Dispelling, please let me know.  I'd like to add it to the <a href="http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8732.0" target="_blank">ACF handbook</a> I've ported over from wherever Dead Weasel posted it, and even added a few things to it.There is also the issue that, according to Versatile Spellcaster, the caster must know the spell to be cast before actually casting it.  To quote it, in case no one clicks the link to read it:Emphasis mine.  So the question becomes: How does the wizard actually know not only a 9th level spell before using Versatile Caster to, arguably, be able to cast said spell using two 8th level spell slots, but how is the 1st level wizard able to get one each of a 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, and 8th level spell known?  Note that the Domain variant saying it grants automatic knowledge of its spells only works upon being able to cast it in the first place.  To quote it:Since we've noted that Versatile Caster requires actually knowing the spell to be cast before using two lower spell slots to cast it, and the Domain wizard only gains knowledge of the spell once it's able to cast it in the first place, it is not possible that the Domain wizard can actually cast the spell.  It's basically a <a href="https://www.google.com/search?q=catch+22+definition" target="_blank">Catch 22.</a>  Since neither can function without the other, nothing functions.  The Spontaneous Divination variant that allows spontaneously casting any divination spell can't be used here because the character is assumed to be level 1, but even if the character was level 5 and had taken the ACF the specifics of Spontaneous Divination clearly states that the wizard must sacrifice a prepared spell of equal or greater level, which isn't possible by using Versatile Spellcaster because VS allows only casting a known spell and does not in fact create a new spell slot.  Despite having the Versatile Spellcaster feat, not actually knowing higher level spells to use with it means the character cannot use VS to cast anything of that level, and if the wizard cannot cast something of that level then certain features do not kick in such as the extra spell slots granted by the Domain or Elven Generalist.  Since the trick is based on the interaction of those (which is still dubious because in the context of most ACFs, it clearly states which features are gained and lost), it is not possible to use VS to be able to cast a higher level spell unless the character already knows one, or in this case the many required for the trick. Since it should now be plain that the wizard doesn't gain higher level spells known through the ACF interactions, we must hypothesize another route the character might learn them.  If we go by the DMG's Wealth By Level chart on page 135, we see that 900 GP is the noted number for 2nd level characters, which might be interpreted as either that during the course of 1st level and upon leveling to 2nd, the character has gotten roughly 900gp worth of items or services.  It might also mean that a 2nd level character itself is limited to that much gp worth of items and such until it reaches 3rd level.  Either way, that 1st level character is not going to have the resources needed to simply buy scrolls of those spells at regular market price.  Note that <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#scribeScroll" target="_blank">scrolls</a> have a base price of spell level × caster level × 25 gp and the default caster levels for scrolls of each spell level can be found <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/scrolls.htm" target="_blank">here</a>, there is no way the wizard can afford to simply buy more than a 4th level scroll much less one each of 2nd through 9th.  Where would the 1st level wizard get that much money?Also of note are the costs involved in scribing scrolls to a wizard's spellbook in the first place.  It costs spell level x 100 gp for the wizard to copy a spell into his spellbook.  Adding it all up (2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9) x 100 equals 4,400 gold.  That's certainly not in the budget!Did the character steal said spell scrolls or a spellbook perhaps?  If so, the guidelines in the DMG, page 135, clearly state that characters running amok (stealing high level magic is, indeed, running amok) will very likely face the consequences of stealing very powerful magic, which could certainly include the creators of those objects in the first place.  Since a 9th level spell is being stolen (because VS requires knowing the spell to be cast and we are going with the hypothesis that the route taken is stealing one), expect the resources of a 17th level character or greater to come bearing down on the 1st level wizard.  Or perhaps a bit lower if some fast-track stuff like Beholder Mage is in play.  Either way, that 1st level wizard doesn't stand a chance because of the opponent definitely having several 9th level spells while the wizard, assuming he can actually learn those spells in whatever amount of time passes before he's taken care of, would only have 1 available to cast.  That and he doesn't have the <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/castingSpells.htm#casterLevel" target="_blank">caster level</a> to actually do much of anything meaningful with the spells anyway.  In fact, according to that link:Wizards need a CL of 17+ to cast 9th level spells.  Is there anything in the build that boosts the wizard's CL to be high enough to actually cast the spells in the first place?  It doesn't seem like there is.  Versatile Spellcaster does not remove the need to have a high enough caster level to cast the spells, nor do any of the ACFs presented so far.  How is the 1st level wizard able to boost his CL to at least 17 to cast 9th level spells?In short, even if we assume the wizard is able to take both the Domain and Elven Wizard variants, the hurdles of: Not having a high enough Caster Level to cast the spells; not being able to spontaneously cast spells at 1st level to qualify for Versatile Spellcaster; not having enough gold to buy scrolls for the spells; not having enough gold to pay for copying spells into his spellbook; the likelihood of having a much higher level character stomp the wizard grabbing so much power so early on; and the fact that the character explcitly needs to know the higher level spell being cast say to me that the "9th level spells with a 1st level character" trick previously presented in scattered posts does not actually work.By the way, if you'd like to do a rebuttal to any of this, could you please give me and the rest of the board the courtesy of replying with citations and in about as much detail as I have taken care to do?  Thank you.</blockquote>

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