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Tumble too powerful?
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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6267145" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>a) DC 15 + BAB means that the DC versus a powerful and skilled fighter is obviously higher. Whether its as high as you would like is a somewhat different matter. I will say that in my game it's considerably harder to get such nice boosting magic items as you have in your example, but then magic items are priced radically differently in my game and there are different assumptions of accessibility compared to the stock game.</p><p>b) I have in my campaign a feat called 'Countermoves' that among other things raises the DC of tumbling through your space by 5, so a powerful and skilled fighter who had the schtick of controlling his space would obviously take this.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Frankly, this sounds a lot like process simulation for its own sake. That is to say, if we are computing "What are the odds that an acrobat tumbles up to the ogre and gets away with it", decreasing the odds of tumble succeeding while increasing the odds that the ogre misses amounts to no real net change. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>First, let me clarify, does the +6 dodge bonus to AC while Tumbling only apply to AoO (as was applied in your earlier post) or does it apply against all attacks? The former I claim is weak. The later I would agree is quite powerful indeed.</p><p></p><p>A +6 dodge bonus to AC at lvl 8 would presumbly, if we assume your base AC is already around 23 or so, give you close to 95% immunity to most peer level foes (most NPCs would need a 20 to hit you). I would however say that with 24 acrobatics, you'd probably ALSO get 95% immunity or better to most peer level foes applying my rule of 15 + BAB. Again, you've moved the odds around a very small bit, but in terms of outcome you've not done all that much. </p><p></p><p>What you have done is a) ensure the AoO is always rolled just to check that 5% chance of a natural 20, and b) moved the fortune determination from the PC's die roll to an NPC's roll. This is IMO not an improvement. </p><p></p><p>You've also probably weakened Tumble as an option at the high end. That is to say, against non-peer foes (higher than your CR, and in particularly high CR period regardless of your CR), you've probably made Tumble less viable (which admittedly from your initial write up seems to have been your intention). I'm guessing this based on looking at what 'to hit bonus' probably gets you 95% immunity. My version means your 8th level acrobat can reliably tumble past say a 10th level fighter, and has even very high odds against much higher CR opponents. Your version means your 8th level acrobat even maximized with Mobility only has an AC around 33 and probably gets hit by even a 10th level non-optimized fighter (or a dragon, or an equivalent outsider) nearly half the time - which is why I said that it's no longer worth risking the AoO or investing in Tumble/Acrobatics relative to just investing in straight up AC. More to the point, it means that unless you have invested heavily in AC, this is useless. Keep in mind, when you draw an AoO you are granting actions to the opponent. It would in many cases be worth it to not attack a powerful foe, rather than to risk an exchange attacks if his blows do more damage than yours. This is IMO not an improvement. Skills are too weak in stock D20 as it is, and you are risking decreasing the fluidity and mobility of combat.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 6267145, member: 4937"] a) DC 15 + BAB means that the DC versus a powerful and skilled fighter is obviously higher. Whether its as high as you would like is a somewhat different matter. I will say that in my game it's considerably harder to get such nice boosting magic items as you have in your example, but then magic items are priced radically differently in my game and there are different assumptions of accessibility compared to the stock game. b) I have in my campaign a feat called 'Countermoves' that among other things raises the DC of tumbling through your space by 5, so a powerful and skilled fighter who had the schtick of controlling his space would obviously take this. Frankly, this sounds a lot like process simulation for its own sake. That is to say, if we are computing "What are the odds that an acrobat tumbles up to the ogre and gets away with it", decreasing the odds of tumble succeeding while increasing the odds that the ogre misses amounts to no real net change. First, let me clarify, does the +6 dodge bonus to AC while Tumbling only apply to AoO (as was applied in your earlier post) or does it apply against all attacks? The former I claim is weak. The later I would agree is quite powerful indeed. A +6 dodge bonus to AC at lvl 8 would presumbly, if we assume your base AC is already around 23 or so, give you close to 95% immunity to most peer level foes (most NPCs would need a 20 to hit you). I would however say that with 24 acrobatics, you'd probably ALSO get 95% immunity or better to most peer level foes applying my rule of 15 + BAB. Again, you've moved the odds around a very small bit, but in terms of outcome you've not done all that much. What you have done is a) ensure the AoO is always rolled just to check that 5% chance of a natural 20, and b) moved the fortune determination from the PC's die roll to an NPC's roll. This is IMO not an improvement. You've also probably weakened Tumble as an option at the high end. That is to say, against non-peer foes (higher than your CR, and in particularly high CR period regardless of your CR), you've probably made Tumble less viable (which admittedly from your initial write up seems to have been your intention). I'm guessing this based on looking at what 'to hit bonus' probably gets you 95% immunity. My version means your 8th level acrobat can reliably tumble past say a 10th level fighter, and has even very high odds against much higher CR opponents. Your version means your 8th level acrobat even maximized with Mobility only has an AC around 33 and probably gets hit by even a 10th level non-optimized fighter (or a dragon, or an equivalent outsider) nearly half the time - which is why I said that it's no longer worth risking the AoO or investing in Tumble/Acrobatics relative to just investing in straight up AC. More to the point, it means that unless you have invested heavily in AC, this is useless. Keep in mind, when you draw an AoO you are granting actions to the opponent. It would in many cases be worth it to not attack a powerful foe, rather than to risk an exchange attacks if his blows do more damage than yours. This is IMO not an improvement. Skills are too weak in stock D20 as it is, and you are risking decreasing the fluidity and mobility of combat. [/QUOTE]
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