Turn Undead House Rule

[Herzog]

Before starting the house rule itself, let me first state what I'm trying to achieve.

1. Make Turn Undead a Feat.
2. Replace current Turn Undead rules.

The second is obvious, the first has some consequences.
It has to become level-independent. To allow scaling, another benefit has to be invented that makes it possible to increase your turn undead ability.
Also, Clerics should be able to perform approximately the same turn undead as they can now.

The rule:

Turn/Rebuke Undead
You are able to channel divine energy to Turn or Rebuke Undead. (Whether it is Turning or Rebuking follows the same rules as for clerics under the standard rules. Being a follower of a god replaces being a cleric of the god)
When you Turn or Rebuke Undead, all Undead within 60' must make a Will saving throw. All the undead that fail the saving throw are considered 'turned' or 'rebuked'. Roll 1d6 + your charisma modifier. This represents the highest HD of undead you destroy (or control). The affected undead may make a Fortitude saving throw to half the number of HD calculated in this way. If the number of HD is higher than or equal to the HD of the undead, it is destroyed (or controlled). If it is lower, the undead is turned (or rebuked). Follow the normal rules for turned or rebuked undead.
Special:
You may take this Feat multiple times.
You can Turn or Rebuke Undead once per day per times you have taken this Feat.
The DC's for the saving throws are 10 + your cha modifier + the number of times you have taken this feat.
The highest HD destroyed is 1d6 for every time you have taken this feat + your cha modifier.
Undead with Turn Resistance may add their resistance to the saving throws and their HD when determining whether they are destroyed (or controlled).

Classes:

Clerics gain this feat as a bonus feat at lvl 1,4,7,10,13,16,19.
Paladins gain this feat as a bonus feat at lvl 4,7,10,13,16,19.

Some Domains give the ability to turn other creatures. This addition remains.
Some prestige classes increase class level in regards to turning undead. These should get the Turn Undead feat as a bonus feat at the appropriate levels (NB: once every three levels for full progression).

Adaption:
This feat could be used as a template to create other kinds of 'turning' feats. These should probably be within the same confines as the restrictions placed on Ranger favoured enemies, although an alternative source for the turning (not just 'devine power' ) should be substituted.

 

[Herzog]

mmm. forgot something important:


I'd like some comment on this please. It's a houserule I am planning on using, but before I will I'd like to get out the more obvious balance issues.

 

[Man-thing]

Comments

What I'm trying to achieve.

1. Make Turn Undead a Feat.
2. Replace current Turn Undead rules.

1) Save: This strikes me as something that kneecaps an already week mechanic. For a cleric to be affective at all he's going to have to pour his feats into this mechanic. The save mechanic is very weak so most of the time the cleric will not succeed in turning, especially with undead creatures having a good Will save.

If you have a secondary goal to make undead more dangerous then this will work.

2) HD: Of course at Level 10 a cleric will be able to destroy a 28 HD lich with a bad save. You might want to look how the HD increase scales.

 

[concerro]

One problem with turn undead, as well as other 3.5 mechanics is that goes by HD. Undead and zombies in particular have more HD than another monster with the same CR would need. It really should be CR based. This might mean changing how turn resistance works for a creature but if something is going to be done then it might as well be done correctly.

 

[Herzog]

about HD:

note that there is no incremental HD counting as is the case with the original Turn Undead and spells like Sleep. All Undead within 60 feet are affected. (which might be a lot if you are surrounded by hundreds of low level undead for example).
The HD mechanic was added to avoid spectacular save-failures by high level undead (by rolling a 1) that destroyed them. better to have them be affected, but turned instead of destroyed.

The 28 HD lich will NOT be destroyed by the lvl 10 cleric (unless he puts all his normal feats in turn undead as well), since he will destroy creatures with 4d6+cha bonus HD as a maximum, and the lich will have turn resistance as well, increasing his HD for this purpose as well.

I'm not sure how I would incorporate turning by CR. I would expect the saves already match up a little with that, but removing the HD influence would require a different destroy/turn mechanic. (maybe fail Fort save by 5 or more?)

 

[green slime]

Nope. Don't like this. Not at all:

1. too many dice rolls: Against a force of 100 skeletons, you are rolling 100 Will saves.
2. Then, you get to roll how many Fort saves to determine the HD that are destroyed?
3. The DM rolls saves for monsters, making this a DM event, rather than a player ability.

It hasn't had enough thought put into it.

 

[Herzog]

1. How is this different from casting a fireball into the middle of 100 skeletons?
2. Fort is only necessary if making the save makes a difference. (6 on your HD roll is more than twice the HD of a 1HD skeleton, so skeleton is destroyed no matter what. 3 on a HD roll vs an 8 HD zombie fails no matter what, so no Fort save necessary.
3. see 1.

Actually, I've put a lot of thought into it before I posted it here.
Rolling a lot of dice has never been an issue for me.
Using a reverse mechanic (an 'attack' roll as used in 4th edition) might work to move the rolls to the player, but then you have a player rolling 100 dice instead of the DM. Where the DM might make a generic ruling ('I will roll 10 dice and use the same roll for 10 creatures each time') the player won't have that advantage.

 

[green slime]

Alright, I'll just state that IMO, it is overly complicated.