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<blockquote data-quote="Irda Ranger" data-source="post: 4054401" data-attributes="member: 1003">I like Turn Undead thematically, but my problem with it (as Doug mentioned) is that encounters vs. Undead with and without a Cleric are wildly different. Such that if a Zombie Swarm were normally a Level 2 encounter, they're probably Level 3 or 4 if you don't have a Cleric.&nbsp; It makes balancing those encounters really hard.&nbsp; It also means that the Cleric needs to have undead opponents to feel fully effective (similar to how Rangers were with their favored enemy).I want to keep Turn Undead in 4E (which seems like it's a guarantee), but I would like to see it useful in non-Undead encounters. I'd also like it to be written / balanced in such a way that the designers can say categorically that Undead are X Levels higher if you don't have a Cleric.&nbsp; That way if I have a group with no Cleric (or Paladin, if they have Turn Undead too) I know exactly how to treat them.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Irda Ranger, post: 4054401, member: 1003"] I like Turn Undead thematically, but my problem with it (as Doug mentioned) is that encounters vs. Undead with and without a Cleric are wildly different. Such that if a Zombie Swarm were normally a Level 2 encounter, they're probably Level 3 or 4 if you don't have a Cleric. It makes balancing those encounters really hard. It also means that the Cleric needs to have undead opponents to feel fully effective (similar to how Rangers were with their favored enemy). I want to keep Turn Undead in 4E (which seems like it's a guarantee), but I would like to see it useful in non-Undead encounters. I'd also like it to be written / balanced in such a way that the designers can say categorically that Undead are X Levels higher if you don't have a Cleric. That way if I have a group with no Cleric (or Paladin, if they have Turn Undead too) I know exactly how to treat them. [/QUOTE]

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