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<blockquote data-quote="Wik" data-source="post: 4738338" data-attributes="member: 40177">So, I'm sure this question has been asked before, but I want to ask it again.&nbsp; Basically - what sort of house rules/changes would be necessary to turn 4e into a Simulation-based game, as opposed to the &quot;gamist&quot; game it currently is?A bit of expansion on that thought...In earlier editions of D&amp;D, for better or for worse (that's not the topic, here), the game sought to mimic the world's &quot;reality&quot;.&nbsp; So, if it made sense for an item to cost 10 gp, even if that made things too easy or too hard for the PCs, then so be it.&nbsp; In 4e, however, the prices have been set with adventuring in mind.An example of this shift can be seen in the price of plate mail.&nbsp; In 3e, plate mail was pretty expensive - no 1st level PC could start with it, and usually had to wait a few levels before it was theirs.&nbsp; In 4e, where Plate Mail is almost assumed gear for Paladin characters (and maybe a few fighters), the price of plate mail is easily within the grasp of any starting PC.(Yes, I know BECMI had cheap plate mail, too... you don't need to point that out).Animals are another example - in a general sense, animals in 3e were based around some sort of economic scale, while in 4e, they scale according to their &quot;level&quot;.&nbsp; Neither approach is right or wrong, per se.&nbsp; I'm just interested in turning 4e from a gamist approach, to a simulationist approach, because that's a play style I'm more interested in.&nbsp; (For what it's worth, I'm thinking of converting DARK SUN into 4e, and I'm convinced 4e DS needs to be more simulation than Gamist).&nbsp; So, how do you do it?&nbsp; A few of my thoughts:1)&nbsp; Remove Treasure Packets.&nbsp; PCs get wealth according to what is realistic within the confines of the encounter.&nbsp; To keep balance, magical items will be factored into a PC's improvement, as Mike Mearls suggested pre 4e release.&nbsp; Other magical items (or magical weapons/armour with special effects) will be discovered only rarely, and not by following some preset scheme.2)&nbsp; Completely re-write the costs of everything, keeping the world's economy in mind.&nbsp; If this means that a spear is MUCH cheaper than a sword, so be it.&nbsp; And if it means the paladin will have a hard time finding his plate mail, oh well.3)&nbsp; Remove many of the items that overcome some common difficulties - say goodbye to Sunrods (as they remove the fun that can be had by moving only by torchlight), Journey Bread (carrying rations is FUN!), and Everburning Torches.&nbsp; 4)&nbsp; Scale Mounts up, so that as PCs level, their mounts do as well.&nbsp; This will allow PCs to go to the market and buy a horse, instead of having to trade in their animals every five levels to keep &quot;in sync&quot; with things.&nbsp; Gah.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Wik, post: 4738338, member: 40177"] So, I'm sure this question has been asked before, but I want to ask it again. Basically - what sort of house rules/changes would be necessary to turn 4e into a Simulation-based game, as opposed to the "gamist" game it currently is? A bit of expansion on that thought... In earlier editions of D&D, for better or for worse (that's not the topic, here), the game sought to mimic the world's "reality". So, if it made sense for an item to cost 10 gp, even if that made things too easy or too hard for the PCs, then so be it. In 4e, however, the prices have been set with adventuring in mind. An example of this shift can be seen in the price of plate mail. In 3e, plate mail was pretty expensive - no 1st level PC could start with it, and usually had to wait a few levels before it was theirs. In 4e, where Plate Mail is almost assumed gear for Paladin characters (and maybe a few fighters), the price of plate mail is easily within the grasp of any starting PC. (Yes, I know BECMI had cheap plate mail, too... you don't need to point that out). Animals are another example - in a general sense, animals in 3e were based around some sort of economic scale, while in 4e, they scale according to their "level". Neither approach is right or wrong, per se. I'm just interested in turning 4e from a gamist approach, to a simulationist approach, because that's a play style I'm more interested in. (For what it's worth, I'm thinking of converting DARK SUN into 4e, and I'm convinced 4e DS needs to be more simulation than Gamist). So, how do you do it? A few of my thoughts: 1) Remove Treasure Packets. PCs get wealth according to what is realistic within the confines of the encounter. To keep balance, magical items will be factored into a PC's improvement, as Mike Mearls suggested pre 4e release. Other magical items (or magical weapons/armour with special effects) will be discovered only rarely, and not by following some preset scheme. 2) Completely re-write the costs of everything, keeping the world's economy in mind. If this means that a spear is MUCH cheaper than a sword, so be it. And if it means the paladin will have a hard time finding his plate mail, oh well. 3) Remove many of the items that overcome some common difficulties - say goodbye to Sunrods (as they remove the fun that can be had by moving only by torchlight), Journey Bread (carrying rations is FUN!), and Everburning Torches. 4) Scale Mounts up, so that as PCs level, their mounts do as well. This will allow PCs to go to the market and buy a horse, instead of having to trade in their animals every five levels to keep "in sync" with things. Gah. [/QUOTE]

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