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<blockquote data-quote="toucanbuzz" data-source="post: 8979500" data-attributes="member: 19270">Making all Perception a save denigrates the Expertise feature, and I'm not sure what we're gaining if we make it a saving throw other than to reduce the ridiculously high levels that some characters can get Perception to. Personally, I don't like using Perception a lot anyways, so your example reflects our gameplay.Unless the party is in a hurry, I hand out most details because they're going to find them anyways (similar to 3rd edition's &quot;take a 20&quot;). I loathe using flavor text and then hearing &quot;I'm rolling a Perception check....&quot;&nbsp; Boring. I want them to roleplay the info I dish out in flavor text, use their brains to explore. I could arbitrarily assign a passive perception DC15 for the torch details, maybe 17 for the scratches, if the party is in a hurry. Let's build and say the room also has a poison gas trap and a skeleton near the scratched wall (the poor chap triggered the trap but couldn't find how to open the secret door in time). The trap triggers when someone rotates the torch sconce in the wrong sequence to open the secret door. I prefer to give players clues and I prefer old-school class specialty. I house-rule only Rogues have a chance of noticing and disabling traps of DC20 or greater.&nbsp; If this is a DC20+ trap, I'll give the Rogue a Perception check to notice the miniature gas holes permeating the ceiling, and an Investigation check to notice the torch seems affixed to a mechanism. If they brought their thieves' tools, they have a chance to disable (perhaps they have a tiny cup that amplifies sound that they can put against the wall, so they hear the click of a correct/incorrect rotation). In any event, Perception only gets used, practically, once, whether it be a save or check.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="toucanbuzz, post: 8979500, member: 19270"] Making all Perception a save denigrates the Expertise feature, and I'm not sure what we're gaining if we make it a saving throw other than to reduce the ridiculously high levels that some characters can get Perception to. Personally, I don't like using Perception a lot anyways, so your example reflects our gameplay. Unless the party is in a hurry, I hand out most details because they're going to find them anyways (similar to 3rd edition's "take a 20"). I loathe using flavor text and then hearing "I'm rolling a Perception check...." Boring. I want them to roleplay the info I dish out in flavor text, use their brains to explore. [I]I could arbitrarily assign a passive perception DC15 for the torch details, maybe 17 for the scratches, if the party is in a hurry. [/I] Let's build and say the room also has a poison gas trap and a skeleton near the scratched wall (the poor chap triggered the trap but couldn't find how to open the secret door in time). The trap triggers when someone rotates the torch sconce in the wrong sequence to open the secret door. I prefer to give players clues and I prefer old-school class specialty. [I]I house-rule only Rogues have a chance of noticing and disabling traps of DC20 or greater. [/I]If this is a DC20+ trap, I'll give the Rogue a Perception check to notice the miniature gas holes permeating the ceiling, and an Investigation check to notice the torch seems affixed to a mechanism. If they brought their thieves' tools, they have a chance to disable (perhaps they have a tiny cup that amplifies sound that they can put against the wall, so they hear the click of a correct/incorrect rotation). In any event, Perception only gets used, practically, once, whether it be a save or check. [/QUOTE]

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