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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6350920" data-attributes="member: 4937">I don't think I said anything as trivial as that.  You seem to repeat this problem throughout your response.  You take something I say and instead of responding to that, you simplify what I said and then respond to it.  You also seem to have a tendency to indicate contradiction, but then continue your discussion either with agreement or non-contradiction.  This confusion on their part if present wouldn't undermine my point.   For example, see my discussion in this thread regarding 'Warrior Mage'.  It also wouldn't directly lead to the next confusion you describe in every case.I've seen that happen before, but I'm not seeing a lot of evidence of the sort of mindsets that would lead to that in the thread.While I agree that no one axis can ever define a character short of a stereotype, personality isn't the same as character.Wait, what??   I haven't even suggested what my preferred language for WYA would be.  I'm not even sure I've established what it would be to my own satisfaction.  In any event, even if we ignore this confusion on your part, I don't agree that they are vague, nor do I agree that they are generally discarded (though some certainly do), nor do I think that you have a clue what I was getting to by mentioning them.   Even though it is a trivial example, deciding what alignment to play before deciding on a class would be an example of prioritizing WYA over WYCD.  You wouldn't necessarily know anything more about the character than knowing the character's dexterity would let you know WYCD, but it would at least be a marker of WYA rather than WYCD.  The usefulness of the marker is irrelevant to the discussion.And in any event, where did I ever indicate that alignment can define a personality or even by itself character?  What are you contradicting here?I also disagree with you regarding the primacy of WYCD over WYA in terms of alignment as a marker, but I really don't want to get sidetracked into an alignment argument.  Suffice to say that while alignment means a certain amount of both, I think the text of the early versions at least indicates its meant to stand for some element of WYA and its usefulness as a mechanical marker in the setting is somewhat secondary.  I agree however that someone could look at a WYA marker and choose it primarily for WYCD reasons - choosing evil alignment in order to rebuke undead, for example - but that doesn't contradict my claim that WYA tends to not be prioritized.I'm afraid there is a language barrier here, in that I don't understand what you are getting at.   I don't know where to link all the pronouns and other references in those clauses in order to have a firm idea of what you are trying to say.I think you are misunderstanding both WYA and WYCD in this context.  I agree that WYA cannot be distinguished from what you have chosen to do, although really a discussion of what is moral and how we judge it is outside the intended scope of this thread.  WYA is not only your morality, and WYCD doesn't necessarily have strong implications in who you are.  They are related, but hardly strongly.  If you can juggle or play tennis or paint, it doesn't necessarily tell us anything about WYA whether morality or personality or anything else.   It doesn't even tell us that you like those things - you might have been forced to learn them by a domineering guardian, or you might just be naturally dexterous.   Learning to juggle doesn't necessarily carry the sort of freight you are putting on "what we do", but its definitely part of WYCD.  Now of course, there are things that you do that do tell us a lot about you.  If you have shot your best friend in the back on purpose simply for some monetary gain, that tells us something about WYA.  But it also tells us relatively little about WYCD and it would be a mistake to think it did.  For the purposes of WYCD, it matters more whether you can hit a target with a rifle from 400 meters reliably or only 4.  WYCD is about how effective you are, not about your choices (though obviously, if you know you are effective or not, it might inform your choices).  Still, what the target is and why you are shooting at isn't really a big part of WYCD.  It would be a mistake to move from the fact that you are a skilled marksmen to thinking that tells us a lot of about WYA.No, of course not.</blockquote>

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