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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 4680262" data-attributes="member: 4937">I don't see how.Chip on your shoulder?  Clearly, someone burned you pretty bad.  I'm guessing though that it wasn't one of the people in this thread, so don't transfer your angst over some bad DM to a bunch of people you don't know.Ok....  Look, I don't like the Grimtooth books either.  I don't like the culture that they represent or create.  I don't like how the traps are inexplicable except as out of game constructs.  But some players believe it or not dig that stuff.  It's not just DM's screwing with people.  It's players that derive satisfaction from taking the best the DM can throw at them and work a way out of it.It is a very long way from saying that the game improves, is more engrossing, and easier to adjudicate if the PC's offer more concrete propositions than, "I take 20 and search the room.", to endorsing one of the Grimtooth dungeons as an ideal example of dungeon design.If I say, "In the abandoned room, you see alot of moldy straw scattered across the floor, a water damaged tapestry, a large stone urn filled to the brim with some black liquid.  Against the north wall, there is a thick layer of tree roots.  A broken down roll top desk suffering rot and termites is against the west wall. There is a sour coppery smell in the air, but you can't identify the source."And the PC responds, "I take 20 to search the room.", he's asking potentially for a world of pain depending on what is in the room.  So what am I supposed to do with that proposition?  Whether he realizes it or not, he's said to me, "I want to find everything in the room and I'm willing to do anything I can think of do it."  The thing is, everything in the room might not be the sort of thing you want to find.  If I was a player, my threat detector would go into the red hearing that sort of description.  Clearly, there is alot of junk that requires caution in this room.  It's not bloody time to take my hands off the wheel and give the DM some entirely abstract propostion.  There could be small nasty monsters in any number of locations in that room.  There could be slime, mold, vermin, and disease hazards.  What could be hiding in or under the straw?  What's with the roots?  What kind of fluid is in the urn?  What's with the smell?  What might the tapestry be hiding?   I for one think I'll keep my sense of mystery and wonder even if it means 'slowing things down' to offer a little more concrete propositions.The same could be said of any other game feature that the players don't see.  Does that men strict railroads are the ideal game design? I can't say anything about whether or not that is true until I know the context.  Context is everything.  I can imagine dungeons where random pits should exist, and I can imagine dungeons where snake trapped chests are not only appropriate but there absence would be inappropriate.</blockquote>

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