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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 4680563" data-attributes="member: 4937">Again, this is entirely contextual.If I'm forced to tap every tile in a dungeon floor with a 10' pole and hold every door open with an iron spike while adventuring in the mines and city that a tribe of Gnolls have carved into the side of a volcano, then perhaps I'm going to eventually start wondering at the maturity of the DM's design skills.If I'm not forced to tap every tile in a dungeon floor with a 10' pole and hold open every door with an iron spike while plundering the infamous tomb of the sinister Yuan-Ti Necromancer King of its reputedly legendary treasure, then I'm going to eventually start wondering at the maturity of the DM's design skills.To a certain extent, the trope tells the tale.  I can know from context whether I'm in a trap filled dungeon designed to test my dungeoneering skills, or whether I'm going to mostly be facing a series of tactical challenges as the party manuevers between a large number of skirmishes against an inferior foe with the advantage of home ground.  Neither scenario is necessarily for everyone, and in either scenario I'm going to eventually balk and try to run off the railroad if I'm fed a steady diet of the same thing week after week.But I would consider both part of a balanced adventuring diet.Even if you look at something like 'Tomb of Horrors' which is I think we'll agree pretty extreme in one direction, the whole scenario involves only about 2 dozen encounter areas and represents at most 2-3 sessions worth of gaming.  It certainly shouldn't represent THE standard of dungeon design, but it is certainly a very well realized example of dungeon design, that can profitably inform a DM's overall style.  In particular, one of the important things a novice DM should note about Tome of Horrors is that Acerak 'plays fair'.  He gives clues.  There is a logic behind the design of the tomb, and Acerak/Gygax sticks to it pretty consistantly.  If every once in a while, the player's can't handle 8-12 rooms filled with well designed puzzles and fiendishly cunning death traps, then I wonder if you've got a party with just as much of a problem as a DM.  I don't have alot of sympathy for players that want a consistant diet of 'straight up fight that earns us easily fungible wealth'.  I have a little more sympathy for players that don't like dungeons at all and would rather spend their time method acting, improv theater, character building, and so forth, but as a DM, every once in a while I just want to design an old school dungeon regardless of who I'm DMing.</blockquote>

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