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Message: <blockquote data-quote="PrecociousApprentice" data-source="post: 4191958" data-attributes="member: 61449">So since we only have limited access to the rules (just the preview material, not the real books), I will preface this by saying that this is just my best guess at how this will work.I was prompted to respond in this thread because I feel that there may be a misunderstanding about how this will play out. To prevent "pixel bitching" we will be allowed to use any skill that is "relavent". DM judgement will need to be applied, and in the context of player creativity and both DM and player maturity, we might be able to avoid the "You were supposed to use Knowledge!", "To avoid certain death by hanging?" type scenarios. Some players will not have the maturity to avoid the skill spam, and some DMs will not have the maturity to allow creativity by the players, a longstanding problem in any social activity.The abstraction of the system allows the DM freedom from bad simmulationism. The type where s/he tries to create an interesting and realistic scenario that is also exciting and allows all players to participate, only to find that there are players who are dissatisfied with his simulation, and even cause trouble with the game and other players, or where the players just didn't read the DM's mind. Now the players are empowered to help create the cinematic tension and creative narrative of the story. This is a shift from the DM simulating a trap to the group telling the story of how they accomplished the task.In reference to time, the player that uses dungeoneering to figure out how long they have before the walls crush them no longer needs a reply of an actual time. A response of "They are closing in on you fast!" allows the player to spur his team mates to action with a "Let's get a move on guys, this room is getting small fast!" and adds to the abstracted successes. This goes just fine with the cinematic feel of 4e. The bomb timber may have been originally set at two hours, but a number of actions were taken, the time is down to a few secconds before it either is obvious that they won't get it disarmed or that they will need that last herioc saccrifice to stay the last few secconds in the attempt. Since the time is abstracted, the tension is kept high, and the story is more fun. No bad simulation, just action movie simulation.The fighter that accidentally brings the walls closer to crushing the characters by failing a strength roll to keep the walls appart has not actually pulled the walls closer. The strength check in not a simulation. It is an abstract interaction with the scene, and successes/failures do not simulate anything. They just allow the DM to inject tension into the scene in a measurable way.In the same way that HP are just an abstraction of "ability to succede in combat", so too are skill challenge successes/failures an abstraction of "ability to succede at a challenge". As there is no need to simulate wounds with HP, there should be no need to simulate the task successes/failures in a skill challenge. Creative description of the action should be good. If the DM doesn't like the description, he has the right interpret the attempted action as a null action, as a fail, or any other way he likes. But to be fair/fun and avoid "pixel bitching", if the other players think that it is fun, he should avoid the railroad. This whole argument seems to be centered around two things.1)Some people hate abstraction because it does a bad/unsatisfactory job of simulating X.2)Some people already have experience/a good group/an intuitive grasp of 3.x that allows them to simulate skill challenges in a way that is more real/fun.They both degenerate into an objection that 4e does not simulate their pet part of 3.x well. For these people, 4e will not be satisfactory for them in these areas. I feel that 4e is more fun in these areas because it removes the engineering aspects of playing/DMing and replaces it with aspects of screanwriting. Everyone knows that action movies do a bad job of simmulating real life, but they are fun. Everyone knows that engineers do a great job of simmulating the rules of real life, but I have never seen engineering as a spectator sport.</blockquote>

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