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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Vraille Darkfang" data-source="post: 1408807" data-attributes="member: 16989">To go against the grain here, I'm going to try going through this with a character example.  Lets take high level fighter Bob (11th lvl), and say he's decided to begin taking the 2-weapon fighting feats, but at present is only able to make a single off-hand attack.  Bob makes 3 attacks with his primary weapon and 1 with his offhand weapon.  Let's say he has a +4 Flaming, Shocking Burst Rapier and a +1 Dagger.   After a long day of killing various monsters for their treasure, Bob finds a +1 Dagger of Speed.  Then he comes unto battle with a bunch of dire attorney kobolds.  Battle ensues.  Can Bob use his extra speed attack with his Rapier?  No, as the Speed property clearly states that the extra attack must be made with it (grammatically refereing to the weapon with the speed enhancemnt).  All his extra attacks must be made with the +1 dagger.  This is pretty clear.   But, what is the party's wizard, Bobby, casts Haste on Bob?  Now Bob gets an extra attack action with the full attack action.  Now what's Bob to do?  Bob now may get an extra attack with one of his weapons from the spell, or he can get an extra attack with his +1 Dagger of Speed.  As the spell allows him to get an extra attack with ANYTHING (sword, punch, beer mug, +1 Dagger of Speed).  The spell overlaps the Dagger's enchantment and it explicitly states the effects don't overlap.  Thus in this case Bob may use the spells effect to make an extra attack with ANY WEAPON he possesses (including the +1 Dagger of Speed).  Thus Bob may now chose whcih weapon he makes his attack with (either the +4 Rapier or the +1 Dagger, but not both.   Here is wher the rules get somewhat buggy.  Say Bob loses his +4 Rapier, but fins a +3 Rapier of Speed.  Bob now has a +3 Rapier of Speed & a +1 Dagger of Speed.  He is ambushed by killer orcs from outer space.  What does our hero do now?   The +3 Rapier gives an extra attack with the +3 Rapier of Speed when using the full attack action.  The +1 Dagger gives an extra attack with the +1 Dagger of speed when using the full attack action.  It COULD be said that since the enchantments don't effect each other (both weapons treated as seperate effects) Bob makes 2 extra attacks 1 with the dagger, 1 with the rapier.  OR, it COULD be said that the enchantments overlap since the effect the same target (Bob), thus Bob gets only 1 extra attack, with either the Rapier or Dagger.   Thus we get into teh nasty semantics of grammer/intent/game balance/etc.  Whcih is correct?  Why your DM's of course!  When dual-wielding 2 weapons of speed, it's up to your DM as to which he/she prefers.     Dungeon Masters!  Read here!  This does bring up some nasty questions, many of whcih could bring an entire gaming session to a screaming halt.  In short choose 1 of these options and stick to it, especially pay attention to potentially similar situations.    Example:  Robert the Barbarian Dwarf has a +2 Dwarven Waraxe of Mighty Cleaving and a +2 Handaxe of Mighty Cleaving.  (Mighty Cleaving giving the possessors of the Cleave Feat 1 extra Cleave Attempt when using the weapon).  THus if Robert kills an orc with his Dwarven Waraxe, then, Cleaves, kills another, then uses his Mighty Cleaving ability to gain an extra attack.  Then kills another orc with his handaxe, will you let him invoke the Mighty Cleaving power in his Handaxe, or will he be unable to as he has already used the Mighty Cleave power this round?    Myself?  I'll let dual speed weapons allow 2 extra attacks in a round.  More because I feel that a weapon of speed allows the wielder to strike more quickly with itself (the weapon) rather than empowering the wielder with the abblity to attack moer quickly.  Thus 2 speed weapons "jump" out of an attackers hand, almost seeking to attack on their own, rather than speeding the wielder into "bullet-time" and allowing him to move with extraordinary swiftness.   Until "offical" errata rears its ugly head, thats my ideal!Vraille Darkfang signing off.</blockquote>

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