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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Dannyalcatraz" data-source="post: 3265345" data-attributes="member: 19675">You don't see the problem here?The Deities & Demigod stats for the Finnish heroes are a kluge.In 1Ed, every last heroic character from the Kalevala has a minimum of 4 classes, usually including levels in Bard, which in 1Ed required a minimum of 5 and maximum of 8 levels of advancement in Fighter,  a minimum of 5 and maximum of 8 levels of Thief and the tutilage of Druids (satisfying all minimum requirements in all of those classes) before getting a single level of Bard- which was a divine (Druidic), not arcane, caster.  In fact, it is a class often "not allowed by Dungeon Masters." (1Ed PHB Appendix II, p 117).And, reading those stat blocks, several of those heroes don't meet the requirements for Bard (Lemminkainen & Ilmarinen for example) despite having levels in the class.  Thats all just handwaved away.How does "Paladin" fit the framework of the Kalevala, which has no real undead or true holy knights...especially when he's going to need those thief levels to qualify for Bard?  In 1Ed, taking level in Thief was entirely incompatible with taking levels in Paladin on an alignment basis:1Ed PHB p 27"Illusionist?"  Most illusion used by heroes in the Kalevala could be reflected with a low-level spell like Disguise Self.  The high levels in this class reflect more avoidance of the flashy, big-damage spells of the Wizard list than actual facility with illusions displayed by heroes in the source material.In 2Ed Player's Option, Vainnamoinen could be summed up in a single-classed PC.  In 3.X any one of them would have to be Epic.  But we expect this because they're "Heroes."I was under no illusion that the PC would ever reach Vainnamoinen's (or any other character in the Kalevala) power.  I was trying to capture the flavor of such a PC before they reached such epic levels- the hero beginning his journey.Then enlighten us- in 3.X, how would you do it?  (By that, I mean both build the PC AND describe a PC concept built on a Kalevala-esque heroic archetype.)I read the Kalevala and some Larousse and Bullfinch books of mythology & legends to find common threads, exploring their heroic archetypes of the region.  I then tried to translate that into game terms.  The result was a single-class warrior-priest build whose best offensive spell was Bull's Strength.  With his magic, he could dispel, he could buff, he could protect...maybe even heal a little- but he couldn't harm an opponent directly.Mighty warrior?  Sure- he could fight, but he didn't have the HP or AC of a true fighter.Mighty spellcaster?  Sure- he could cast high-level spells...that would keep his allies alive or move them from Point A to Point B, but he wasn't smiting anyone with gouts of divine flame from above.The 3.X Bard is no longer a Druidic caster, but an Arcane one.  That changes a lot of spell availability and skills.The 3.X Ranger has a good spell list, but the class comes with things like Favored Enemy and Animal Companions that don't fit the archetype.The 3.X Cleric?  The Travel and Luck domains are nearly a perfect fit, but the class has Turn Undead (an alien concept to the Kalevala) and many spells that are simply too powerful.And none of those classes have access to the Abjuration spells that were, IMHO, key to the concept of a PC whose spell list was other-centric.  A protector or guardian.We could tell because you joined the thread with subtle points like: And implying that if you couldn't do it with the Core, you were somehow a munchkin.Yet when I point out a PC concept that shouldn't be built with the core classes since that would result in a PC that has the wrong spells and abilities for the archetype, you say I've got a "laundry list" of abilities.Hmmmmm....</blockquote>

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