Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Two underlying truths: D&D heritage and inclusivity
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8024371" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>Ok, let us dig into this a little bit.</p><p></p><p>What other intelligent monster in the monster manual is considered "brutish and low"?</p><p></p><p>We've acknowledged that goblinoids are problematic (or at least, I have) and that gnolls are going back to full monster roots with their "only born from slaughter" aesthetic which works for them, because they've never inter-bred with anything. And, double word score, those people who want playable gnolls and having a rich gnoll culture, tend to build societies which are interesting and diverse enough without the racial stereotyping. So win-win on official lore and omakes. </p><p></p><p>What racial coding can we find with Psychic Fish? I can't think of any stereotypes that falls under. Psychic Squid-faced monstrosity? Again, I can't think of any stereotypes they are fulfilling. </p><p></p><p>So, we can talk about them, but other than "killing people is bad" we actually can't get anywhere with them. And that gets into questions like whether or not you should kill bandits on the road too. Which is an entirely different discussion about morality within DnD and has nothing to do with racial language.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Oh, well, yeah. if you are going to be blatantly offensive, than something is offensive. But, the nuance comes in with associations.</p><p></p><p>Saying that all crocodiles are cannibals isn't offensive, they are creatures that eat anything.</p><p>Saying that all Pacific Islanders are cannibals, that would be offensive. Not only is it not true, but it plays into stereotypes that are harmful to their culture.</p><p></p><p>Making a race of bipedal crocodile people, who live on islands in the vast ocean, practice elaborate tattooing, and have Cargo Cults... well, why they share visual similarities with crocs, it is clear you are making a reference to a certain group of people, so making them cannibals would be problematic.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I bolded the assertion, and I think if that is the problem people are having (and from the likes I think it might be) then there is a lot of confusion being thrown around. </p><p></p><p>The issue with it, that I see, is that it ends up side-stepping a few things. After all, we don't have an issue with evil societies or evil groups. No one here is advocating for the removal of the Zhentarim or the Red Wizards of Thay, right? And I think if you were playing in a game where those groups were prominent, telling you players that a traveling group of soldiers is flying the flag of Zhemtarim is going to be an immediate sign of "those are the bad guys" </p><p></p><p>The thing is, that the Zhentarim are not the whole of an intelligent race. They are a sub-set with ideas and plans that make them antagonists. </p><p></p><p></p><p>So, if it isn't no evil people ever (which I don't think anyone thought, but I'm building a baseline) then what is the problem?</p><p></p><p>Evil from Birth.</p><p></p><p>An orc in the classical sense never has to make any decisions. From the moment of conception til they die, they are just evil. And that is the problem. That leads to it being perfectly okay to slaughter infants in their cribs, because those infants are evil already.</p><p></p><p>And this is why I don't see the gnolls or mindflayers as the same sort of thing. A gnoll is literally a monstrous man-eating hyena that walks on two legs. They started life as an innocent hyena pup, but through dark magic and consumption of a corpse slaughtered by a gnoll, they were twisted into something else.</p><p></p><p>Mindflayers used to be good people, until a parasitic, mindless worm was inserted into their head, ate most of their brain, and forcibly morphed them into a brain-washed drone of the mindflayer hive. In fact, stopping the "birth" of a mindflayer would be a good thing, because it saves the life of the person they were about to kill.</p><p></p><p>Excepting demons, who are literally formed from evil energy, and races like orcs and goblins, you can trace back to an origin point where they were not evil. And that is the problem with classical orcs and goblins. By being born evil, they literally have no choice, they cannot choose to be better, so slaughtering them wholesale is the only possible answer. And I have a problem with that.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 8024371, member: 6801228"] Ok, let us dig into this a little bit. What other intelligent monster in the monster manual is considered "brutish and low"? We've acknowledged that goblinoids are problematic (or at least, I have) and that gnolls are going back to full monster roots with their "only born from slaughter" aesthetic which works for them, because they've never inter-bred with anything. And, double word score, those people who want playable gnolls and having a rich gnoll culture, tend to build societies which are interesting and diverse enough without the racial stereotyping. So win-win on official lore and omakes. What racial coding can we find with Psychic Fish? I can't think of any stereotypes that falls under. Psychic Squid-faced monstrosity? Again, I can't think of any stereotypes they are fulfilling. So, we can talk about them, but other than "killing people is bad" we actually can't get anywhere with them. And that gets into questions like whether or not you should kill bandits on the road too. Which is an entirely different discussion about morality within DnD and has nothing to do with racial language. Oh, well, yeah. if you are going to be blatantly offensive, than something is offensive. But, the nuance comes in with associations. Saying that all crocodiles are cannibals isn't offensive, they are creatures that eat anything. Saying that all Pacific Islanders are cannibals, that would be offensive. Not only is it not true, but it plays into stereotypes that are harmful to their culture. Making a race of bipedal crocodile people, who live on islands in the vast ocean, practice elaborate tattooing, and have Cargo Cults... well, why they share visual similarities with crocs, it is clear you are making a reference to a certain group of people, so making them cannibals would be problematic. I bolded the assertion, and I think if that is the problem people are having (and from the likes I think it might be) then there is a lot of confusion being thrown around. The issue with it, that I see, is that it ends up side-stepping a few things. After all, we don't have an issue with evil societies or evil groups. No one here is advocating for the removal of the Zhentarim or the Red Wizards of Thay, right? And I think if you were playing in a game where those groups were prominent, telling you players that a traveling group of soldiers is flying the flag of Zhemtarim is going to be an immediate sign of "those are the bad guys" The thing is, that the Zhentarim are not the whole of an intelligent race. They are a sub-set with ideas and plans that make them antagonists. So, if it isn't no evil people ever (which I don't think anyone thought, but I'm building a baseline) then what is the problem? Evil from Birth. An orc in the classical sense never has to make any decisions. From the moment of conception til they die, they are just evil. And that is the problem. That leads to it being perfectly okay to slaughter infants in their cribs, because those infants are evil already. And this is why I don't see the gnolls or mindflayers as the same sort of thing. A gnoll is literally a monstrous man-eating hyena that walks on two legs. They started life as an innocent hyena pup, but through dark magic and consumption of a corpse slaughtered by a gnoll, they were twisted into something else. Mindflayers used to be good people, until a parasitic, mindless worm was inserted into their head, ate most of their brain, and forcibly morphed them into a brain-washed drone of the mindflayer hive. In fact, stopping the "birth" of a mindflayer would be a good thing, because it saves the life of the person they were about to kill. Excepting demons, who are literally formed from evil energy, and races like orcs and goblins, you can trace back to an origin point where they were not evil. And that is the problem with classical orcs and goblins. By being born evil, they literally have no choice, they cannot choose to be better, so slaughtering them wholesale is the only possible answer. And I have a problem with that. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Two underlying truths: D&D heritage and inclusivity
Top