Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Two underlying truths: D&D heritage and inclusivity
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8025253" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>Because she is the one at the table, not Jung, not a cultural anthropologist dissecting old stories. A woman who would find this story farcical at best.</p><p></p><p>You again seem to be missing the point. You asked, "why should we not keep every trope and story DnD has ever told" (summarizing innaccurately, I know) and my response was to point out that some of those tropes and stories are just bad and hold no value beyond historical or scholarly value. </p><p></p><p>And historical and scholarly value is not what we are at the table to play. </p><p></p><p>We can't erase the history, or remove these stories from every library on the planet, all we are talking about is not writing them down in the books released for the game. You could still go to your local library, get a copy of Sleeping Beauty, and put it in your game as an adventure, but why should the game present it to you as a possible trope?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure discussing the history is great. But I'd rather it be in a history book than my rulebook. </p><p></p><p>And, since I am proposing we make orcs people, that they could be good or bad or anything in-between, I'm curious why you think the side who is proposing we change nothing because it is fine would accept that. </p><p></p><p>I mean, we didn't need examples or options for evil human organizations, did we? We've had evil dwarven groups before and we didn't need examples to explain how and why dwarves can be evil. </p><p></p><p>I think the very fact you feel that we need to explain that orcs are people, and give examples of good and bad orcs, shows the problem in stark relief. Because we've never needed to do that for any of the "civilized races". </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Do you have evil organizations of humans in your game? Anywhere? Thieve's Guild, Death Cult, Iron Legions of a Tyranical King, any of it? </p><p></p><p>If you do, how is making orcs people wit moral complexity going to prevent you from having evil orcs? It didn't prevent you from having evil humans. </p><p></p><p>And, since the game has half-orcs, the game has to acknowldge orcs as people. Otherwise, the themes of sexual violence are far too strong and problematic, especially with the language around orcs being problematic as is. </p><p></p><p>I get you want your mindless, black and white morality, just kill them all games. I want those too. Since I've done it with humans, I see no reason I can't do it with orcs.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yeah, um, you might want to extend those bolded words a bit to include the words next to them. </p><p></p><p>For example, while you bolded:</p><p></p><p>"<em>they aren't good with...authority...obedience...being part of a huge infrastructure....no innate desire to build....</em>" </p><p></p><p>You left out "<strong>faceless authority</strong>", "<strong>blind obedience</strong>", "<strong>no innate desire to build vast cities or organize huge armies</strong>" which adds a bit of context. </p><p></p><p>In fact, since that no desire to build is where I think you are getting your "laziness" from which is really the bigger sticking point of the trope, I think it is important that context is explored. An orc would have no problem building a house for his family, or building a shrine to the spirits he worships. In fact, since they live in small tribes, they are probably very active since hunting is an activity that takes a lot of time and energy. </p><p></p><p>What they don't have a desire to do is build a city, or a temple, or conquer a nation. They are actually amusingly enough, fairly similiar to stereotypical hobbits. Very happy with their small community, thank you very much sir.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 8025253, member: 6801228"] Because she is the one at the table, not Jung, not a cultural anthropologist dissecting old stories. A woman who would find this story farcical at best. You again seem to be missing the point. You asked, "why should we not keep every trope and story DnD has ever told" (summarizing innaccurately, I know) and my response was to point out that some of those tropes and stories are just bad and hold no value beyond historical or scholarly value. And historical and scholarly value is not what we are at the table to play. We can't erase the history, or remove these stories from every library on the planet, all we are talking about is not writing them down in the books released for the game. You could still go to your local library, get a copy of Sleeping Beauty, and put it in your game as an adventure, but why should the game present it to you as a possible trope? Sure discussing the history is great. But I'd rather it be in a history book than my rulebook. And, since I am proposing we make orcs people, that they could be good or bad or anything in-between, I'm curious why you think the side who is proposing we change nothing because it is fine would accept that. I mean, we didn't need examples or options for evil human organizations, did we? We've had evil dwarven groups before and we didn't need examples to explain how and why dwarves can be evil. I think the very fact you feel that we need to explain that orcs are people, and give examples of good and bad orcs, shows the problem in stark relief. Because we've never needed to do that for any of the "civilized races". Do you have evil organizations of humans in your game? Anywhere? Thieve's Guild, Death Cult, Iron Legions of a Tyranical King, any of it? If you do, how is making orcs people wit moral complexity going to prevent you from having evil orcs? It didn't prevent you from having evil humans. And, since the game has half-orcs, the game has to acknowldge orcs as people. Otherwise, the themes of sexual violence are far too strong and problematic, especially with the language around orcs being problematic as is. I get you want your mindless, black and white morality, just kill them all games. I want those too. Since I've done it with humans, I see no reason I can't do it with orcs. Yeah, um, you might want to extend those bolded words a bit to include the words next to them. For example, while you bolded: "[I]they aren't good with...authority...obedience...being part of a huge infrastructure....no innate desire to build....[/I]" You left out "[B]faceless authority[/B]", "[B]blind obedience[/B]", "[B]no innate desire to build vast cities or organize huge armies[/B]" which adds a bit of context. In fact, since that no desire to build is where I think you are getting your "laziness" from which is really the bigger sticking point of the trope, I think it is important that context is explored. An orc would have no problem building a house for his family, or building a shrine to the spirits he worships. In fact, since they live in small tribes, they are probably very active since hunting is an activity that takes a lot of time and energy. What they don't have a desire to do is build a city, or a temple, or conquer a nation. They are actually amusingly enough, fairly similiar to stereotypical hobbits. Very happy with their small community, thank you very much sir. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Two underlying truths: D&D heritage and inclusivity
Top