Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Two underlying truths: D&D heritage and inclusivity
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8027561" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>You seem to want to erect this massive wall between "fantasy" and "reality" and no judgement can pass through that wall. But this misses the point so utterly, that I can't even find the words to explain it to you. </p><p></p><p>If I accept your premise as true, that you (As in any reader of any fantasy) cannot apply real world perspectives, ethics, or ideology to a fantasy story, then fantasy stories are worthless, meaningless, and boring. </p><p></p><p>Analogies are always a terrible idea, but let me go ahead and just start throwing them around. </p><p></p><p>I have on my shelf a "superhero" story. It falls under fantasy in that it is not real. Superheroes do not exist, superpowers do not exist. Within this story the main organization for superheroes abducts children with powers and trains them to be child soldiers, sent on kill missions against any hero that leaves the organization, because that person is a villain (by the way, this is the Velveteen Vs. series if people are interested) </p><p></p><p>Is this organization right to do so? Wrong to do so? By your premise, I cannot say. I literally cannot say that training children to kill traitors is wrong, or evil, or good, or anything. It is a fantasy story. Real World Ethics do not apply. </p><p></p><p>I have another story, (Starlight by Brandon Sanderson) in this story, an alien who is under judgement for whether or not it should be born, risks its future existence by defying orders to fight against a space monster and save trillions of lives on a space station. </p><p></p><p>Is this person brave? Cowardly? Good? Evil? Again, by your premise, I cannot say. I cannot say that choosing to risk your own life to protect the lives of others is good or brave or despicable. It is a fantasy story. Real World Ethics do not apply. </p><p></p><p></p><p>Now, perhaps you will say that I am meant to judge these actions within the context of the story, is the story presented in such a way, to tell me how to view that action. That tells me whether or not these actions were good or evil. </p><p></p><p></p><p>That means that I am meant to judge actions, based on the narrators judgement. Which leads me to a third book. </p><p></p><p>In this book, which I do not remember the name of, nor will I give the author any business if I could, a man recieves a message in his brain that he will gain power if he kills three people in the next minute. He hates people, so he does so. And he is reborn with the ability to control insects. He is a tiny gemstone, buried underground. He gains more power by killing more living things. At the climax of the story, he is controlling a swarm of wasps to torture and kill a family of five. He takes great pleasure in doing so, and finds the act very rewarding. Funny too since he has the insects stalk them for about a day, and the people are completely unaware that he exists, or that these are anything other than normal wasps. </p><p></p><p>Judging this story based solely on the morality it presents, in this world of the book, murder and torture are fulfilling and amusing actions that have great rewards attached to them. This is truth, because it is presented to us in this story, and this is a fantasy story, so only the morality within the story applies. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is why your continued assertions fall apart Mercurius. We have to be able to apply real world ethics and reasoning to our stories. Otherwise every author would have to explain why kindness is good and torture is bad. </p><p></p><p>And yes, we also have to judge the story by the story, by the assumptions it makes. The Addams family is a comedy, their actions which would be horrific and deadly in the real world are nothing more than silly antics within their own world. But, that is the power of comedic stories. They can break the rules, and set new ones. But, if you want me to take your fantasy story seriously, instead of as a poorly written comedy, then you need to apply enough reality to make it grounded.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 8027561, member: 6801228"] You seem to want to erect this massive wall between "fantasy" and "reality" and no judgement can pass through that wall. But this misses the point so utterly, that I can't even find the words to explain it to you. If I accept your premise as true, that you (As in any reader of any fantasy) cannot apply real world perspectives, ethics, or ideology to a fantasy story, then fantasy stories are worthless, meaningless, and boring. Analogies are always a terrible idea, but let me go ahead and just start throwing them around. I have on my shelf a "superhero" story. It falls under fantasy in that it is not real. Superheroes do not exist, superpowers do not exist. Within this story the main organization for superheroes abducts children with powers and trains them to be child soldiers, sent on kill missions against any hero that leaves the organization, because that person is a villain (by the way, this is the Velveteen Vs. series if people are interested) Is this organization right to do so? Wrong to do so? By your premise, I cannot say. I literally cannot say that training children to kill traitors is wrong, or evil, or good, or anything. It is a fantasy story. Real World Ethics do not apply. I have another story, (Starlight by Brandon Sanderson) in this story, an alien who is under judgement for whether or not it should be born, risks its future existence by defying orders to fight against a space monster and save trillions of lives on a space station. Is this person brave? Cowardly? Good? Evil? Again, by your premise, I cannot say. I cannot say that choosing to risk your own life to protect the lives of others is good or brave or despicable. It is a fantasy story. Real World Ethics do not apply. Now, perhaps you will say that I am meant to judge these actions within the context of the story, is the story presented in such a way, to tell me how to view that action. That tells me whether or not these actions were good or evil. That means that I am meant to judge actions, based on the narrators judgement. Which leads me to a third book. In this book, which I do not remember the name of, nor will I give the author any business if I could, a man recieves a message in his brain that he will gain power if he kills three people in the next minute. He hates people, so he does so. And he is reborn with the ability to control insects. He is a tiny gemstone, buried underground. He gains more power by killing more living things. At the climax of the story, he is controlling a swarm of wasps to torture and kill a family of five. He takes great pleasure in doing so, and finds the act very rewarding. Funny too since he has the insects stalk them for about a day, and the people are completely unaware that he exists, or that these are anything other than normal wasps. Judging this story based solely on the morality it presents, in this world of the book, murder and torture are fulfilling and amusing actions that have great rewards attached to them. This is truth, because it is presented to us in this story, and this is a fantasy story, so only the morality within the story applies. This is why your continued assertions fall apart Mercurius. We have to be able to apply real world ethics and reasoning to our stories. Otherwise every author would have to explain why kindness is good and torture is bad. And yes, we also have to judge the story by the story, by the assumptions it makes. The Addams family is a comedy, their actions which would be horrific and deadly in the real world are nothing more than silly antics within their own world. But, that is the power of comedic stories. They can break the rules, and set new ones. But, if you want me to take your fantasy story seriously, instead of as a poorly written comedy, then you need to apply enough reality to make it grounded. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Two underlying truths: D&D heritage and inclusivity
Top