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Two underlying truths: D&D heritage and inclusivity
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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8027958" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>Do you know why George kills Lenny? I remember the scene fairly well. George killed Lenny because if he took Lenny to the mob he was going to get killed in a brutal and violent fashion. Or, if that didn't happen, he would be taken to jail, where he would be locked in with violent criminals and a soft-soul like Lenny would have been destroyed by that experience. </p><p></p><p>You are right that Lenny is abused and humiliated constantly in the story. And never once does the author want us to celebrate that fact, indeed, the entire point is that the society is not set up for a person like Lenny. People don't understand him. </p><p></p><p></p><p>You seem to keep getting attached to this idea that I'm saying "showing bad things is bad". You are right, that would be simplistic. </p><p></p><p>It would be much more accurate to say "Celebrating bad things is bad" </p><p></p><p>Here, let me craft really extremely offensive book title to really drive this point home. This is bad, not something that I would ever condone being sold in any context.</p><p></p><p>[SPOILER="Seriously, this is offensive, dealing with the Holocaust and WWII"]A Book titled "Why the Holocaust was Good and should be Celebrated" [/SPOILER]</p><p></p><p>Do you think a book with that title deserves any protection? Do you think we should listen to the author as they try and explain that we should be allowed to show horrible things happening to people? The intent was not to show evil, but to celebrate it. To say it was in fact good. </p><p></p><p>That is the problem. That is what I am saying we cannot allow in our stories. We cannot celebrate evil and just and good and expect that we won't get criticized for it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'm not against exploring topics, I'm not against using gaming as a lens to explore hard ideas. </p><p></p><p>I'm against the depiction of evil being shown as good.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You are right, I don't understand you, but I think that is in part because you seem to refuse to understand me. </p><p></p><p>So, let's take the Duergar step by step, and I'll show you where the problem is. Maybe that will help you get it. </p><p></p><p></p><p><strong>The Duergar are evil, greedy and heartless dwarves</strong>: This is actually fine. Simplistic and "us vs them" but fine. If the book had stuck with this. No problem. </p><p></p><p><strong>The Duergar are evil, greedy and heartless dwarves. They were enslaved and warped by the Mindflayers: </strong>Okay, we are getting more interesting here. Now we have a reason for them being evil. This could make for an interesting story. </p><p></p><p><strong><strong>The Duergar are evil, greedy and heartless dwarves. They were enslaved and warped by the Mindflayers. They were led free from slavery by the man who would become their new God. He took a journey through Hell to gain the power needed to free his people. He accept treasure, but tricked the devils by using magic so the treasure would not weigh him down. They attacked him, but he had too much to fight for and defeated them. They acted mirthful and silly, offering him hundreds of temptations, but he was stoic and refused anything except for his due: </strong></strong>Okay... this is, odd right? I mean tricking Hell, being resolute in his goals. These are all things we can get behind. It adds a little to the story I guess, fleshes out the guy who freed them. But, I don't really need any of it. </p><p></p><p></p><p><strong><strong><strong>The Duergar are evil, greedy and heartless dwarves. They were enslaved and warped by the Mindflayers. They were led free from slavery by the man who would become their new God. He took a journey through Hell to gain the power needed to free his people. He accept treasure, but tricked the devils by using magic so the treasure would not weigh him down. They attacked him, but he had too much to fight for and defeated them. They acted mirthful and silly, offering him hundreds of temptations, but he was stoic and refused anything except for his due. Then they broke free of the Mind Flayers and returned </strong></strong>to the surface to rejoin their kin. But the good and noble dwarves turned them away, saying their enslavement was their own fault for being greedy and lazy and ignoring Moradin's warnings. </strong>Wait, what? Here is the problem. Why are the dwarves good and noble for turning them away? Why are they being called lazy and when did Moradin even warn them? And, sure they didn't turn down treasure, but tricking Hell out of a ton of gold isn't exactly a bad thing. Why is any of this even needed, what are we adding here? Why not go back up to the second section, that didn't have all this. </p><p></p><p><strong></strong></p><p><strong><strong><strong>The Duergar are evil, greedy and heartless dwarves. They were enslaved and warped by the Mindflayers. They were led free from slavery by the man who would become their new God. He took a journey through Hell to gain the power needed to free his people. He accept treasure, but tricked the devils by using magic so the treasure would not weigh him down. They attacked him, but he had too much to fight for and defeated them. They acted mirthful and silly, offering him hundreds of temptations, but he was stoic and refused anything except for his due. Then they broke free of the Mind Flayers and returned </strong></strong>to the surface to rejoin their kin. But the good and noble dwarves turned them away, saying their enslavement was their own fault for being greedy and lazy and ignoring Moradin's warnings. So, the Evil and Cruel Duergar swore bloody vengeance against the good Dwarves and their Divine Father Moradin, and the two sides have been at war ever since. The Dwarves joyful acts of creation against the mindless drudgery and hate of the Duergar. </strong>Again, what? Of course the Duergar swore vengeance, they are being mistreated, and why are we calling the dwarves good and noble and applying all this positive imagery to them? They are the ones in the wrong. Why are we supposed to root for the dwarves, I'm with Laduguer, at least that guy never abandoned his people. He refused worlds worth of tempation so he could have the power to free his people from slavery. That guy is worth following. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Does this make more sense now? Duergar are evil by itself isn't bad. Duergar are evil because they were enslaved by the mindflayers, not bad, could be interesting. Duergar are evil because they were enslaved and the dwarves were right to call them lazy and greedy and cast them out after they freed themselves from slavery.... what? Why is any of that even needed? </p><p></p><p>Heck, you could have the same Duergar blaming the dwarves with a simple change and it would still be better. The Duergar never went back to the dwarves. Instead they sent a message declaring a war of vengeance against the dwarves for not saving them. To which the dwarven reaction was "wait, you guys were alive?! We thought you were all killed. What happened? You needed saving?". </p><p></p><p>That would be better. Instead, we got the dwarves rightfully banishing the Duergar for the sin of being enslaved. Which is sickening.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 8027958, member: 6801228"] Do you know why George kills Lenny? I remember the scene fairly well. George killed Lenny because if he took Lenny to the mob he was going to get killed in a brutal and violent fashion. Or, if that didn't happen, he would be taken to jail, where he would be locked in with violent criminals and a soft-soul like Lenny would have been destroyed by that experience. You are right that Lenny is abused and humiliated constantly in the story. And never once does the author want us to celebrate that fact, indeed, the entire point is that the society is not set up for a person like Lenny. People don't understand him. You seem to keep getting attached to this idea that I'm saying "showing bad things is bad". You are right, that would be simplistic. It would be much more accurate to say "Celebrating bad things is bad" Here, let me craft really extremely offensive book title to really drive this point home. This is bad, not something that I would ever condone being sold in any context. [SPOILER="Seriously, this is offensive, dealing with the Holocaust and WWII"]A Book titled "Why the Holocaust was Good and should be Celebrated" [/SPOILER] Do you think a book with that title deserves any protection? Do you think we should listen to the author as they try and explain that we should be allowed to show horrible things happening to people? The intent was not to show evil, but to celebrate it. To say it was in fact good. That is the problem. That is what I am saying we cannot allow in our stories. We cannot celebrate evil and just and good and expect that we won't get criticized for it. I'm not against exploring topics, I'm not against using gaming as a lens to explore hard ideas. I'm against the depiction of evil being shown as good. You are right, I don't understand you, but I think that is in part because you seem to refuse to understand me. So, let's take the Duergar step by step, and I'll show you where the problem is. Maybe that will help you get it. [B]The Duergar are evil, greedy and heartless dwarves[/B]: This is actually fine. Simplistic and "us vs them" but fine. If the book had stuck with this. No problem. [B]The Duergar are evil, greedy and heartless dwarves. They were enslaved and warped by the Mindflayers: [/B]Okay, we are getting more interesting here. Now we have a reason for them being evil. This could make for an interesting story. [B][B]The Duergar are evil, greedy and heartless dwarves. They were enslaved and warped by the Mindflayers. They were led free from slavery by the man who would become their new God. He took a journey through Hell to gain the power needed to free his people. He accept treasure, but tricked the devils by using magic so the treasure would not weigh him down. They attacked him, but he had too much to fight for and defeated them. They acted mirthful and silly, offering him hundreds of temptations, but he was stoic and refused anything except for his due: [/B][/B]Okay... this is, odd right? I mean tricking Hell, being resolute in his goals. These are all things we can get behind. It adds a little to the story I guess, fleshes out the guy who freed them. But, I don't really need any of it. [B][B][B]The Duergar are evil, greedy and heartless dwarves. They were enslaved and warped by the Mindflayers. They were led free from slavery by the man who would become their new God. He took a journey through Hell to gain the power needed to free his people. He accept treasure, but tricked the devils by using magic so the treasure would not weigh him down. They attacked him, but he had too much to fight for and defeated them. They acted mirthful and silly, offering him hundreds of temptations, but he was stoic and refused anything except for his due. Then they broke free of the Mind Flayers and returned [/B][/B]to the surface to rejoin their kin. But the good and noble dwarves turned them away, saying their enslavement was their own fault for being greedy and lazy and ignoring Moradin's warnings. [/B]Wait, what? Here is the problem. Why are the dwarves good and noble for turning them away? Why are they being called lazy and when did Moradin even warn them? And, sure they didn't turn down treasure, but tricking Hell out of a ton of gold isn't exactly a bad thing. Why is any of this even needed, what are we adding here? Why not go back up to the second section, that didn't have all this. [B] [B][B]The Duergar are evil, greedy and heartless dwarves. They were enslaved and warped by the Mindflayers. They were led free from slavery by the man who would become their new God. He took a journey through Hell to gain the power needed to free his people. He accept treasure, but tricked the devils by using magic so the treasure would not weigh him down. They attacked him, but he had too much to fight for and defeated them. They acted mirthful and silly, offering him hundreds of temptations, but he was stoic and refused anything except for his due. Then they broke free of the Mind Flayers and returned [/B][/B]to the surface to rejoin their kin. But the good and noble dwarves turned them away, saying their enslavement was their own fault for being greedy and lazy and ignoring Moradin's warnings. So, the Evil and Cruel Duergar swore bloody vengeance against the good Dwarves and their Divine Father Moradin, and the two sides have been at war ever since. The Dwarves joyful acts of creation against the mindless drudgery and hate of the Duergar. [/B]Again, what? Of course the Duergar swore vengeance, they are being mistreated, and why are we calling the dwarves good and noble and applying all this positive imagery to them? They are the ones in the wrong. Why are we supposed to root for the dwarves, I'm with Laduguer, at least that guy never abandoned his people. He refused worlds worth of tempation so he could have the power to free his people from slavery. That guy is worth following. Does this make more sense now? Duergar are evil by itself isn't bad. Duergar are evil because they were enslaved by the mindflayers, not bad, could be interesting. Duergar are evil because they were enslaved and the dwarves were right to call them lazy and greedy and cast them out after they freed themselves from slavery.... what? Why is any of that even needed? Heck, you could have the same Duergar blaming the dwarves with a simple change and it would still be better. The Duergar never went back to the dwarves. Instead they sent a message declaring a war of vengeance against the dwarves for not saving them. To which the dwarven reaction was "wait, you guys were alive?! We thought you were all killed. What happened? You needed saving?". That would be better. Instead, we got the dwarves rightfully banishing the Duergar for the sin of being enslaved. Which is sickening. [B][/B] [/QUOTE]
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