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Two underlying truths: D&D heritage and inclusivity
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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8028224" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>Okay, some of this moves into territories of satire and parody, which can be presented in a very different way. Or, in the case of Edgar Allen Poe, a writer who is trying to horrify us by doing the most terrible of things to women, because he in his own life lost many mother figures and we can interpret his actions and writings not as a destruction of women, but as the horror of the destruction of women. </p><p></p><p>And, it can be possible that we miss key context or details of the author's life and intent that make this hard to determine. It is possible to convey a lot with pacing, framing, word choice and point of view that is difficult to express or make examples of explicitly, but that people pick up on while reading. </p><p></p><p>But, by declaring a work cannot be compared with real-world ethics, that by using a "critical lens" we are making some sort of foul against the work, we lose a critical tool in determining a work's value. And works of art have value. And sometimes that value is high, and sometimes that value is low. </p><p></p><p><em>Of Mice and Men</em> as we discussed earlier fails in it's message if we cannot step outside of the world it presents and think about the implications. As does works like "A Modest Proposal" whose very horrific and disturbing nature is the point of the work. The piece of literature loses all value, if we cannot and should not apply real world ethics to the proposal. </p><p></p><p>In fact, I would argue that more great works lose their value in the face of the loss of the applying Real World Ethics than anything else. </p><p></p><p>There is nuance and subtlety here, there are levels and counter-points to be sure, but the early presentations of Mercurius also included that argument that we should not judge a work of fiction that posits "what if the moon was made of cheese" on the basis of the moon not being made of cheese. Which seems to be a much more literalistic approach than an approach about Authorial intent and whether we are supposed to be horrified about the actions within a work or not.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The problem here is that your players are not slave-owning Romans from 100 BCE. If you presented the players with an estate that included 100 slaves, a lot of your players might be very disturbed as suddenly becoming slave owners. </p><p></p><p>Or, if they were expected to watch and cheer as a hungry manticore tore apart civilians screaming for help, they might not be capable of being okay with that, like a Roman noble could have been. </p><p></p><p>And the more you try and sell "No, guys , you are supposed to be okay with this" in the text or at the table, the more they are going to start looking towards the other constant of Roman civilization. Civil War.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Breaking this out of order. </p><p></p><p>This is not the case. The book does not present this as a secret. This is something that is known to the world, to the dwarves and the their allies. Again, you can add to this lore, and by adding to it make it better, but as it is, it is not good. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>A combination. Though I find your phrasing interesting. </p><p></p><p>I am not accusing WoTC of Victim Blaming, I am accusing them of writing a story where victim blaming is seen as okay. That is one part. </p><p></p><p>The second part is the world-building part, and this is nuanced and potentially small, but it is perfectly placed to trip me up and send the plates crashing to the ground. </p><p></p><p>First, this is presented as a factual, historical account. Not as a mythology. It has some myth elements, such as the tale of the Duergar leader going through the Nine Hells,</p><p></p><p>Moradin is LG. Dwarves are LG in general, so we may assume that their society is LG on the whole. So, while individuals might be different alignments, since no individual dwarves are named, we are supposed to use the default. </p><p></p><p>Moradin sends signs to the Duergar. Signs which are supposedly ignored. However, why did he send the signs to the Duergar only, and not other Dwarves? The other Dwarves could have mounted a rescue attempt. But, if Moradin sent the signs that means he was aware of the danger to his people. </p><p></p><p>This also means that at some point during their enslavement, Moradin abandons them. He stops sending signs. He does grant any of them Clerical Powers or Paladin powers. He does not send dwarves to try and free them. </p><p></p><p>The story mentions that their enslavement lasts for "Generations". For a human, a generation is about 20 years, about how long it takes us to mature. For a dwarf that would be 50 years. If we assume at least five generations, that means that they were enslaved at least 250 years. With no aid from their god. </p><p></p><p>Putting a pin in that, and turning to the other clans. They sent envoys after all. These envoys had noted that the stronghold was abandoned, and that there was no sign of disease, calamity or invasion. Now, this implies that they searched the stronghold. If they searched, would that not have revealed that all the mining tools were gone? The Duergar were mining with a single-minded purpose, leaving behind a trail of the dead. Would dwarves have not noticed the massive, single mine shaft that had corpses, and found the Duergar? </p><p></p><p>But, instead, they concluded that whatever happened (because they never learned their fate) that they disappeared due to laziness, greed and contempt for Moradin. </p><p></p><p>And, unpinning the Moradin side of the story, the priests of Moradin were the ones who labeled the clan as heretics. Now, this is a setting where the gods are real. Meaning that if Moradin did not agree that an entire clan of his dwarves were heretics, and felt they needed rescued, he would have sent signs and omens to the priests. But, he did not. </p><p></p><p>And the Duergar's defense of being lured into a trap was ignored. </p><p></p><p>Now, this was an entire clan of dwarves emerging from slavery. I'm going to posit that where ever they showed up, they showed up en mass. This was not a subtle homecoming, the society would have noticed. And likely, the hall were the Duergar made their case had a large crowd. </p><p></p><p>So, we have the dwarves (or at least a lot of them, not just a single ill-intented king or priest) and their god turning their backs on the Duergar. </p><p></p><p>But, in every depiction beyond this story, in every point of reference we get, the dwarves are pointed out as being good. Hard working, joyous, making works of beauty, patiently judging people by their actions. And the Duergar are presented as cruel, heartless, they hate joy, they hate trust, they hate and hate and hate. </p><p></p><p>So, I am supposed to dislike the Duergar. I am supposed to see them as evil. The escaped slaves, who spent centuries being tortured and were abandoned and labeled heretics by their brethren and their god. Labeled lazy and greedy, because they were psychically compelled to work themselves to death to deliver themselves into the chains of slavery. </p><p></p><p>And I can't do it. I can't see them as anything other than the victims of a petty god and ignorant or cruel brethren.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 8028224, member: 6801228"] Okay, some of this moves into territories of satire and parody, which can be presented in a very different way. Or, in the case of Edgar Allen Poe, a writer who is trying to horrify us by doing the most terrible of things to women, because he in his own life lost many mother figures and we can interpret his actions and writings not as a destruction of women, but as the horror of the destruction of women. And, it can be possible that we miss key context or details of the author's life and intent that make this hard to determine. It is possible to convey a lot with pacing, framing, word choice and point of view that is difficult to express or make examples of explicitly, but that people pick up on while reading. But, by declaring a work cannot be compared with real-world ethics, that by using a "critical lens" we are making some sort of foul against the work, we lose a critical tool in determining a work's value. And works of art have value. And sometimes that value is high, and sometimes that value is low. [I]Of Mice and Men[/I] as we discussed earlier fails in it's message if we cannot step outside of the world it presents and think about the implications. As does works like "A Modest Proposal" whose very horrific and disturbing nature is the point of the work. The piece of literature loses all value, if we cannot and should not apply real world ethics to the proposal. In fact, I would argue that more great works lose their value in the face of the loss of the applying Real World Ethics than anything else. There is nuance and subtlety here, there are levels and counter-points to be sure, but the early presentations of Mercurius also included that argument that we should not judge a work of fiction that posits "what if the moon was made of cheese" on the basis of the moon not being made of cheese. Which seems to be a much more literalistic approach than an approach about Authorial intent and whether we are supposed to be horrified about the actions within a work or not. The problem here is that your players are not slave-owning Romans from 100 BCE. If you presented the players with an estate that included 100 slaves, a lot of your players might be very disturbed as suddenly becoming slave owners. Or, if they were expected to watch and cheer as a hungry manticore tore apart civilians screaming for help, they might not be capable of being okay with that, like a Roman noble could have been. And the more you try and sell "No, guys , you are supposed to be okay with this" in the text or at the table, the more they are going to start looking towards the other constant of Roman civilization. Civil War. Breaking this out of order. This is not the case. The book does not present this as a secret. This is something that is known to the world, to the dwarves and the their allies. Again, you can add to this lore, and by adding to it make it better, but as it is, it is not good. A combination. Though I find your phrasing interesting. I am not accusing WoTC of Victim Blaming, I am accusing them of writing a story where victim blaming is seen as okay. That is one part. The second part is the world-building part, and this is nuanced and potentially small, but it is perfectly placed to trip me up and send the plates crashing to the ground. First, this is presented as a factual, historical account. Not as a mythology. It has some myth elements, such as the tale of the Duergar leader going through the Nine Hells, Moradin is LG. Dwarves are LG in general, so we may assume that their society is LG on the whole. So, while individuals might be different alignments, since no individual dwarves are named, we are supposed to use the default. Moradin sends signs to the Duergar. Signs which are supposedly ignored. However, why did he send the signs to the Duergar only, and not other Dwarves? The other Dwarves could have mounted a rescue attempt. But, if Moradin sent the signs that means he was aware of the danger to his people. This also means that at some point during their enslavement, Moradin abandons them. He stops sending signs. He does grant any of them Clerical Powers or Paladin powers. He does not send dwarves to try and free them. The story mentions that their enslavement lasts for "Generations". For a human, a generation is about 20 years, about how long it takes us to mature. For a dwarf that would be 50 years. If we assume at least five generations, that means that they were enslaved at least 250 years. With no aid from their god. Putting a pin in that, and turning to the other clans. They sent envoys after all. These envoys had noted that the stronghold was abandoned, and that there was no sign of disease, calamity or invasion. Now, this implies that they searched the stronghold. If they searched, would that not have revealed that all the mining tools were gone? The Duergar were mining with a single-minded purpose, leaving behind a trail of the dead. Would dwarves have not noticed the massive, single mine shaft that had corpses, and found the Duergar? But, instead, they concluded that whatever happened (because they never learned their fate) that they disappeared due to laziness, greed and contempt for Moradin. And, unpinning the Moradin side of the story, the priests of Moradin were the ones who labeled the clan as heretics. Now, this is a setting where the gods are real. Meaning that if Moradin did not agree that an entire clan of his dwarves were heretics, and felt they needed rescued, he would have sent signs and omens to the priests. But, he did not. And the Duergar's defense of being lured into a trap was ignored. Now, this was an entire clan of dwarves emerging from slavery. I'm going to posit that where ever they showed up, they showed up en mass. This was not a subtle homecoming, the society would have noticed. And likely, the hall were the Duergar made their case had a large crowd. So, we have the dwarves (or at least a lot of them, not just a single ill-intented king or priest) and their god turning their backs on the Duergar. But, in every depiction beyond this story, in every point of reference we get, the dwarves are pointed out as being good. Hard working, joyous, making works of beauty, patiently judging people by their actions. And the Duergar are presented as cruel, heartless, they hate joy, they hate trust, they hate and hate and hate. So, I am supposed to dislike the Duergar. I am supposed to see them as evil. The escaped slaves, who spent centuries being tortured and were abandoned and labeled heretics by their brethren and their god. Labeled lazy and greedy, because they were psychically compelled to work themselves to death to deliver themselves into the chains of slavery. And I can't do it. I can't see them as anything other than the victims of a petty god and ignorant or cruel brethren. [/QUOTE]
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