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Two underlying truths: D&D heritage and inclusivity
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<blockquote data-quote="dfuller1138" data-source="post: 8029836" data-attributes="member: 7023044"><p>Iin some interview, Orcs were mentioned as being loosely derived from LotR. Plus, the similarities are all too obvious. Tolkien found his inspiration also, from prior works, no doubt.</p><p></p><p>Orcs are NOT SAPIENT. They don't even exist except in writing and one's imagination. People in the real world are sapient. DM's are acting when portraying orcs as adversaries.</p><p></p><p>That's like saying, "The Government is after me". Government is a fiction written on paper that people subscribe to. "Government" is not a real person. People acting in the fiction of government, make government real. People - REAL people - acting as an agent of the agency (government) are the ones who come after you.</p><p></p><p>People tend to personify fiction. Whether orcs or government. They don't exist except on paper and in our imagination and willingness - in the case of government - to accept the authority of people acting in the fiction of government. We give people the agency of government.</p><p></p><p>Much like we accept a DM's "authority" when the DM plays the part of the fictional Orc(s) in attempting to kill off PC's.</p><p></p><p>Are orcs real? No. Do they exist on paper? Yes. Have you assigned them real world agency? Yes. As an example of real world problems? Yes. Do orcs cause real world problems? No. The fiction of orcs is now substituted for a real world problem. True. Now, see below.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Agreed. Orcs are handled poorly. Have the DM write up the rules for High Orcs. Even the 1st Edition AD&D DMG had rules for playing Monsters as PCs. Yes, the rules for doing so have been around for THAT LONG. If 5e fails? Consult 1st Edition. Use imagination. It is what it is there for.</p><p></p><p>It can be done. I should copyright that and publish my own supplement. But I won't. Someone else do it. However...</p><p></p><p>High Orcs vs. Orcs... Someone will object: Orc on Orc violence!!! GASP! Remind you of a REAL world situation? That's right. Reinforcing stereotypes in the real world. Class warfare, also. "High Orcs" would be the civilized race bringing colonialism to the Orc savages**. Violence as a means to solving disputes. I could go on and on and on with every objection under known to mankind to show why even portraying High Orcs is stereotyping, violent, etc.</p><p></p><p>**As a side note, Duck Tales does that. Scrooge McDuck and his nephews represent the Western Civilized nations. In just about every cartoon, they bring Enlightenment by teaching others not of their culture, how to do things. Duck Tales is actually a very offensive cartoon in its portrayal of other cultures. I'm being quite serious. Duck Tales is a thorougly Imperial colonial cartoon. Do children actually realize that when they watch Duck Tales? Is Duck Tales a vehicle of hatred?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Some people will associate races in D&D with real world races - MUCH LIKE YOU ASSOCIATED ORCS AS SAPIENT (you have assigned REAL WORLD AGENCY to a word on paper or screen) to the point of giving them Scottish (or other) accents. See it in movies, IIRC. I've never run across a DM giving a Dwarf a Scottish accent. There was one player who gave his character a Scottish accent and terribly so. That player's ancestors actually came from Scotland. Still a terrible accent and yes, a Dwarf PC. Is anyone going to tell him he was being culturally insensitive? They'd be LAUGHED out of the room.</p><p></p><p>As for accents, we use what we have. It helps differentiate characters and races and cultures and even sub-cultures. Or we can all speak in a dull monotone. Personally - regarding another game - the Troll accent in WoW elevates the Trolls. They are cool as written and portrayed. Maybe they should have given that accent to the Alliance humans though I don't think that would have gone over very well, in believability. Imagine the Orcs in WoW speaking like a corporate executive. Or maybe a Russian accent. Or better yet, a Birmingham accent from England. It can be done. Will people believe it or will such detract from the work? Mostly the latter.</p><p></p><p>Exercise: Give a correct accent for a native of the Adromedan Galaxy, who is speaking English as a non-native.</p><p></p><p>YOU HAVE ALREADY FAILED EVEN BEFORE I GAVE THE EXERCISE FOR YOU TO TRY.</p><p></p><p>You never will be able to do so. It is outside of human experience. Therefor, human experience is used to give Fantasy "People", their accents that we know of - human accents.</p><p></p><p>It is thus useless to object to giving Dwarves, Scottish accents. No one has ever heard a non-human Dwarf speak, at least it has never been recorded. EVER. And if we were to give Dwarves another human accent - say, Swahili? There would be someone who objects, GUARANTEED.</p><p></p><p>Circular firing squad, in the end. Though it was cute (and somewhat irritating on the ears) that the Elf in Netflix's "The Dragon Prince" has Scottish accent. However, the accent did its job. That is, until someone is offended.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="dfuller1138, post: 8029836, member: 7023044"] Iin some interview, Orcs were mentioned as being loosely derived from LotR. Plus, the similarities are all too obvious. Tolkien found his inspiration also, from prior works, no doubt. Orcs are NOT SAPIENT. They don't even exist except in writing and one's imagination. People in the real world are sapient. DM's are acting when portraying orcs as adversaries. That's like saying, "The Government is after me". Government is a fiction written on paper that people subscribe to. "Government" is not a real person. People acting in the fiction of government, make government real. People - REAL people - acting as an agent of the agency (government) are the ones who come after you. People tend to personify fiction. Whether orcs or government. They don't exist except on paper and in our imagination and willingness - in the case of government - to accept the authority of people acting in the fiction of government. We give people the agency of government. Much like we accept a DM's "authority" when the DM plays the part of the fictional Orc(s) in attempting to kill off PC's. Are orcs real? No. Do they exist on paper? Yes. Have you assigned them real world agency? Yes. As an example of real world problems? Yes. Do orcs cause real world problems? No. The fiction of orcs is now substituted for a real world problem. True. Now, see below. Agreed. Orcs are handled poorly. Have the DM write up the rules for High Orcs. Even the 1st Edition AD&D DMG had rules for playing Monsters as PCs. Yes, the rules for doing so have been around for THAT LONG. If 5e fails? Consult 1st Edition. Use imagination. It is what it is there for. It can be done. I should copyright that and publish my own supplement. But I won't. Someone else do it. However... High Orcs vs. Orcs... Someone will object: Orc on Orc violence!!! GASP! Remind you of a REAL world situation? That's right. Reinforcing stereotypes in the real world. Class warfare, also. "High Orcs" would be the civilized race bringing colonialism to the Orc savages**. Violence as a means to solving disputes. I could go on and on and on with every objection under known to mankind to show why even portraying High Orcs is stereotyping, violent, etc. **As a side note, Duck Tales does that. Scrooge McDuck and his nephews represent the Western Civilized nations. In just about every cartoon, they bring Enlightenment by teaching others not of their culture, how to do things. Duck Tales is actually a very offensive cartoon in its portrayal of other cultures. I'm being quite serious. Duck Tales is a thorougly Imperial colonial cartoon. Do children actually realize that when they watch Duck Tales? Is Duck Tales a vehicle of hatred? Some people will associate races in D&D with real world races - MUCH LIKE YOU ASSOCIATED ORCS AS SAPIENT (you have assigned REAL WORLD AGENCY to a word on paper or screen) to the point of giving them Scottish (or other) accents. See it in movies, IIRC. I've never run across a DM giving a Dwarf a Scottish accent. There was one player who gave his character a Scottish accent and terribly so. That player's ancestors actually came from Scotland. Still a terrible accent and yes, a Dwarf PC. Is anyone going to tell him he was being culturally insensitive? They'd be LAUGHED out of the room. As for accents, we use what we have. It helps differentiate characters and races and cultures and even sub-cultures. Or we can all speak in a dull monotone. Personally - regarding another game - the Troll accent in WoW elevates the Trolls. They are cool as written and portrayed. Maybe they should have given that accent to the Alliance humans though I don't think that would have gone over very well, in believability. Imagine the Orcs in WoW speaking like a corporate executive. Or maybe a Russian accent. Or better yet, a Birmingham accent from England. It can be done. Will people believe it or will such detract from the work? Mostly the latter. Exercise: Give a correct accent for a native of the Adromedan Galaxy, who is speaking English as a non-native. YOU HAVE ALREADY FAILED EVEN BEFORE I GAVE THE EXERCISE FOR YOU TO TRY. You never will be able to do so. It is outside of human experience. Therefor, human experience is used to give Fantasy "People", their accents that we know of - human accents. It is thus useless to object to giving Dwarves, Scottish accents. No one has ever heard a non-human Dwarf speak, at least it has never been recorded. EVER. And if we were to give Dwarves another human accent - say, Swahili? There would be someone who objects, GUARANTEED. Circular firing squad, in the end. Though it was cute (and somewhat irritating on the ears) that the Elf in Netflix's "The Dragon Prince" has Scottish accent. However, the accent did its job. That is, until someone is offended. [/QUOTE]
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