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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Technik4" data-source="post: 540817" data-attributes="member: 7211">Sweeping changes to the game? I'm sorry, but I disagree. A sweeping change to the game would have to change one of the founding factors, something like removing the level system or the class system. What we are discussing is powering up a weak chain of feats.My point was, comparing anything to what a commoner can (or will do) is silly. I was being sarcastic. In order to balance a feat at any step you dont ask yourself if a commoner would want to take it, you ask yourself if this is a feat EVERYONE would want to/have to take. Obviously, at present we can say 'no' to the present 2wf rules.I wasnt comparing a rogue to a fighter so much as comparing a rogue with bigger negatives, less feats, and albeit one (or two) more chances to hit on a full attack action. Let me ask you, is it better to have:A. lvl 12 human rogue with: Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Weapon Focus-Rapier, Weapon Finesse-Rapier, Imp Critical-RapierorB. lvl 12 human rogue with: Ambidexterity, 2-Weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus-Shortsword, Off-hand Parry, Weapon Finesse-Shortsword, Improved 2-Weapon Fighting.Lets say we were going for an offensive minded rogue, ideally doing good sneak damage, and generally staying alive. Assuming 20 dex for each, A has a BAB of +19/+14, can get in and out with spring attack, announce a dodge every turn, and with a +4 keen rapier, has a 12-20 threat range.B using shortswords (your best, and damn near only option as a rogue, I wont even be mean and go for a longsword/dagger or longsword/shortsword, let alone exotic weapon config) has a BAB of +15/+10 with 2 additional attacks on a full-attack option at +14/+19. She has a +3 keen shortsword and a +2 defending shortsword, so she can add a +2 dodge and a +2 armor bonus and sacrafice her 'bonus' off-hand attacks. Her threat ranges are only 17-20, her weapon can not damage as much DR as A (cannot pierce +4 DR), and her attacks are at 4 worse. These characters spent rougly the same amount of money on their weapons (50,000 of their alotted 88,000), and this is one of the best possible setups for B, wheras A had the extra feat to grab an exotic, or could just as easily pick a different weapon.OK, that example had a purpose, and that was basically to show that paying 4 feats for 2 attacks (and a defensive option), is weak. You have to have weaker weapons, you have to have less feats to spend on your weapons inherently in order to use twf. Now, these are just single class rogues, would they really have to multi to a fighter just to use a style? I dont think they should, but in most respects it really would be better for B. And what if B would rather do something more stylish, say a rapier and a dagger or some-such combination, now its near impossible with a decent attack bonus. You trade your weapon finesse and weapon focus to whatever is on your main hand, and now you might as well give up all of your extra attacks in lieu of the +4 AC bonus (for the record, you can get a +4 buckler (+5 AC bonus) for 16,000, 2,000 less than the +2 defending weapon.I hope you dont think Im attacking YOU, Im merely trying to point out that mechanically, for offense or defense, for especially any class other than fighter (but also including fighter) 2wf is weak. End of story. So making a feat that lets you get the benefits of 2 feats with only 2 weapons, and powering up two-weapon fighting to replace improved two-weapon fighting, does NOT seem to be a "travesty of game balance".TechnikImproved 2-weapon Fighting [General]Prereq: Two-Weapon Fighting, Ambi, BAB +9 Benefit: In addition to extra single attack you get with off-hand, you get a second attack with the off-hand weapon, albeit at a -5 penalty.Greater 2-weapon FightingPrereq: Improved 2-weapon Fighting, Two-Weapon Fighting, Ambi, BAB +15Benefit: You get a third attack with your off-hand at a -10 penalty.</blockquote>

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