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<blockquote data-quote="Khaalis" data-source="post: 1752477" data-attributes="member: 2167">Hail. Thanks again for the comments. It is helping me set some ideas in my mind for alternatives to offer the sorcerer for variation and creativity.This is good.&nbsp; It is, in a way, a bridge – at least in mechanics.&nbsp; /rant onI personally have a huge beef with the Bard as one of the absolutely worst written classes in the game. Personally I feel that the Bard is crap as currently written. It cant decide What its purpose or its class function is.&nbsp; The concept of a Bard is a sound foundation, but I honestly think that the implementation is poorly done.&nbsp; As it exists it is more like the Dev team tried to cram a jack-of-all-trades idea into a core class rather than developing an archetype of the Bard from history or even fiction.&nbsp; The Marshal class is actually better thought out than the bard, though it focuses only on one aspect of what a Bard could be. I am still toying with ideas to make the Bard more closely related to what the archetype should be, but with the current mechanics available, I have trouble doing so – though I am leaning toward using the Marshal template or more likely molding the Bard into something more akin to a Psionic class. There is also though fact of picking which type of Bard archetype to follow. The herald, the skald, etc. Also bards of various cultures are vastly different from one another. Anyway… that’s for another thread…/rant offIn actuality, in my revamp of the core class system, I have done this with ALL classes (except the Sorcerer which is only partially tookit).For example, here is the Rogue table…[Code][b]&nbsp; &nbsp; BaseClass&nbsp; &nbsp; Attack&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; SAVESLevel&nbsp; &nbsp; Bonus&nbsp; &nbsp; Fort&nbsp; &nbsp; Ref&nbsp; &nbsp; Will&nbsp; &nbsp; Special[/b]1&nbsp; &nbsp; +0&nbsp; &nbsp; +0&nbsp; &nbsp; +2&nbsp; &nbsp; +0&nbsp; &nbsp; 2 Rogue Abilities2&nbsp; &nbsp; +1&nbsp; &nbsp; +0&nbsp; &nbsp; +3&nbsp; &nbsp; +0&nbsp; &nbsp; Rogue Ability3&nbsp; &nbsp; +2&nbsp; &nbsp; +1&nbsp; &nbsp; +3&nbsp; &nbsp; +1&nbsp; &nbsp; 2 Rogue Abilities4&nbsp; &nbsp; +3&nbsp; &nbsp; +1&nbsp; &nbsp; +4&nbsp; &nbsp; +1&nbsp; &nbsp; Rogue Ability5&nbsp; &nbsp; +3&nbsp; &nbsp; +1&nbsp; &nbsp; +4&nbsp; &nbsp; +1&nbsp; &nbsp; Rogue Ability6&nbsp; &nbsp; +4&nbsp; &nbsp; +2&nbsp; &nbsp; +5&nbsp; &nbsp; +2&nbsp; &nbsp; Rogue Ability7&nbsp; &nbsp; +5&nbsp; &nbsp; +2&nbsp; &nbsp; +5&nbsp; &nbsp; +2&nbsp; &nbsp; Rogue Ability8&nbsp; &nbsp; +6&nbsp; &nbsp; +2&nbsp; &nbsp; +6&nbsp; &nbsp; +2&nbsp; &nbsp; Rogue Ability9&nbsp; &nbsp; +6&nbsp; &nbsp; +3&nbsp; &nbsp; +6&nbsp; &nbsp; +3&nbsp; &nbsp; Rogue Ability10&nbsp; &nbsp; +7&nbsp; &nbsp; +3&nbsp; &nbsp; +7&nbsp; &nbsp; +3&nbsp; &nbsp; 2 Rogue Abilities11&nbsp; &nbsp; +8&nbsp; &nbsp; +3&nbsp; &nbsp; +7&nbsp; &nbsp; +3&nbsp; &nbsp; Rogue Ability12&nbsp; &nbsp; +9&nbsp; &nbsp; +4&nbsp; &nbsp; +8&nbsp; &nbsp; +4&nbsp; &nbsp; Rogue Ability13&nbsp; &nbsp; +9&nbsp; &nbsp; +4&nbsp; &nbsp; +8&nbsp; &nbsp; +4&nbsp; &nbsp; Rogue Ability14&nbsp; &nbsp; +10&nbsp; &nbsp; +4&nbsp; &nbsp; +9&nbsp; &nbsp; +4&nbsp; &nbsp; Rogue Ability15&nbsp; &nbsp; +11&nbsp; &nbsp; +5&nbsp; &nbsp; +9&nbsp; &nbsp; +5&nbsp; &nbsp; 2 Rogue Abilities16&nbsp; &nbsp; +12&nbsp; &nbsp; +5&nbsp; &nbsp; +10&nbsp; &nbsp; +5&nbsp; &nbsp; Rogue Ability17&nbsp; &nbsp; +12&nbsp; &nbsp; +5&nbsp; &nbsp; +10&nbsp; &nbsp; +5&nbsp; &nbsp; Rogue Ability18&nbsp; &nbsp; +13&nbsp; &nbsp; +6&nbsp; &nbsp; +11&nbsp; &nbsp; +6&nbsp; &nbsp; Rogue Ability19&nbsp; &nbsp; +14&nbsp; &nbsp; +6&nbsp; &nbsp; +11&nbsp; &nbsp; +6&nbsp; &nbsp; Rogue Ability20&nbsp; &nbsp; +15&nbsp; &nbsp; +6&nbsp; &nbsp; +12&nbsp; &nbsp; +6&nbsp; &nbsp; Rogue Ability[/code]The Rogue can then choose the archetype of rogue they are seeking to build and mold their abilities to that. For example if they want to train in Sneak Attack but not specialize in it, they can acquire only as much knowledge as they want in it.Sneak Attack (Ex): The Rogue has trained in the specific tactics required to strike vital areas of an unaware target in such a way as to cause extra damage.&nbsp; This is the ability listed in the Player’s Handbook and follows all of the standard Sneak Attack rules.&nbsp; The ability actually can be taken as 10 different abilities, taken in stages over the Rogue’s career.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; To achieve each level of Sneak Attack, in addition to the listed requirements, the Rogue must also have a minimum number of ranks in Knowledge (Physiology) as the level of Sneak Attack they wish to achieve.&nbsp; (Thus a Rogue wishing to take Sneak Attack III, must have at least 3 ranks in Knowledge (Physiology).)Note: This is an additional class skill for rogues.Sneak Attack I: When the Rogue takes this ability, it begins as Sneak Attack I. This ability grants +1d6 damage on sneak attacks.Sneak Attack II: If the Rogue has a Base Attack Bonus of +2 or higher and has Sneak Attack I, this ability grants an extra +1d6 damage on sneak attacks, raising their total extra damage to +2d6.Sneak Attack III: If the Rogue has a Base Attack Bonus of +3 or higher and has Sneak Attack II, this ability grants an extra +1d6 damage on sneak attacks, raising their total extra damage to +3d6.ETC ON OUT TO…Sneak Attack X: If the Rogue has a Base Attack Bonus of +14 or higher and has Sneak Attack IX, this ability grants an extra +1d6 damage on sneak attacks, raising their total extra damage to +10d6.Some other non-typical abilities are:Fighting Rogue…Blaze of Glory (Ex): If the Rogue has a Base Attack of +10 or more, they may, once per day as a standard action adopt a base attack bonus equal to a Fighter of their character level. This lasts for a number of rounds equal to their Charisma modifier, but the rogue is fatigued for an equal number of rounds after using this ability.Dual Weapon Technique (Ex): If the Rogue has a Base Attack Bonus of +4 or higher as well as having 6 ranks or more in Balance and a Dexterity score of at least 14, and when wearing light or no armor, they may fight with two weapons as if they had the feat Two-Weapon Fighting.&nbsp; This bonus is not gained when a Rogue is penalized their dexterity modifier, when they wear medium or heavy armor.Wilderness Rogue…Camouflage (Ex): If the rogue has 10 or more ranks in Hide and Survival, they may hide in any natural terrain even when without cover or concealment.Woodland Stride (Ex): If the rogue has 10 or more ranks in both Move Silently and Survival, they may move through natural ground covered terrain (shrubs, thorns, etc.), at their normal speed and without suffering damage or other impairment. This does not provide protection from enchanted or magically manipulated areas.Bounty/Investigator Rogue…Urban Tracking (Ex): The rogue may take the Urban Tracking ability from the Unearthed Arcana (p.56) as a bonus feat.They are also open to a Wide Range of Bonus feats such as Stealthy, Deft Strike, Agile, Negotiator, Fleet of Foot, Track, etc. etc. rather than being locked into the Sneak-Assassin of the core class.In the sorcerer I am trying to present archetype changes akin to the Battle Sorcerer as an overall template to the core concept, allowing their to be more variation from sorcerer to sorcerer.I can respect that, but I am currently working under the umbrella of working within the system’s constraints. Currently Clerics are a necessary and core part of the D&amp;D system. Within that confine, the idea of a sorcerous priest could exist if someone wanted it to.&nbsp;&nbsp;As for the sorcerer treading on the druid this is very unlikely. The druid still retains all of their class abilities that a sorcerer would never have such as the defining class ability of Wild Shape, not to mention all of the various other abilities such as immunities, etc.Currently for a Nature Sorcerer I am leaning toward…Benefits:* Gain Intermediate BAB* Gain new class skills: Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (nature), Listen, Spot and Survival, and 4 skill points* Gain Druid Spell list in addition to Sorcerer spell list* Gain Animal Companion instead of Familiar* Gain Light Armor Proficiency feat* Gain ability to cast in Light armor at no Arcane Spell FailureCosts:* Reduce spell slots by 1 per spell level* Reduce spells known by 1 per spell levelIt is an interesting idea though very hard to attempt. There is far too much involved in the “Monk” class to manage this crossing easily without writing a whole new class such as the Arcane Monk from AEG’s MAGIC or some of the various Monk/Arcane crossover PrCs.The closest would be this very tiny tweak to the Battle Sorcerer…Unarmed SorcererBenefits:* Increase HD from d4 to d8* Increase BAB to Intermediate* Gain new class skills: Balance, Diplomacy, Knowledge (religion), Tumble* Gain Improved Unarmed Combat feat* Gain Light Armor Proficiency feat* Gain ability to cast in Light armor at no Arcane Spell FailureCosts:* Reduce spell slots by 1 per spell level* Reduce spells known by 1 per spell levelThen optimal spell choices become Touch attack and Buffing spells.Thoughts?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Khaalis, post: 1752477, member: 2167"] Hail. Thanks again for the comments. It is helping me set some ideas in my mind for alternatives to offer the sorcerer for variation and creativity. This is good. It is, in a way, a bridge – at least in mechanics. /rant on I personally have a huge beef with the Bard as one of the absolutely worst written classes in the game. Personally I feel that the Bard is crap as currently written. It cant decide What its purpose or its class function is. The concept of a Bard is a sound foundation, but I honestly think that the implementation is poorly done. As it exists it is more like the Dev team tried to cram a jack-of-all-trades idea into a core class rather than developing an archetype of the Bard from history or even fiction. The Marshal class is actually better thought out than the bard, though it focuses only on one aspect of what a Bard could be. I am still toying with ideas to make the Bard more closely related to what the archetype should be, but with the current mechanics available, I have trouble doing so – though I am leaning toward using the Marshal template or more likely molding the Bard into something more akin to a Psionic class. There is also though fact of picking which type of Bard archetype to follow. The herald, the skald, etc. Also bards of various cultures are vastly different from one another. Anyway… that’s for another thread… /rant off In actuality, in my revamp of the core class system, I have done this with ALL classes (except the Sorcerer which is only partially tookit). For example, here is the Rogue table… [Code] [b] Base Class Attack SAVES Level Bonus Fort Ref Will Special[/b] 1 +0 +0 +2 +0 2 Rogue Abilities 2 +1 +0 +3 +0 Rogue Ability 3 +2 +1 +3 +1 2 Rogue Abilities 4 +3 +1 +4 +1 Rogue Ability 5 +3 +1 +4 +1 Rogue Ability 6 +4 +2 +5 +2 Rogue Ability 7 +5 +2 +5 +2 Rogue Ability 8 +6 +2 +6 +2 Rogue Ability 9 +6 +3 +6 +3 Rogue Ability 10 +7 +3 +7 +3 2 Rogue Abilities 11 +8 +3 +7 +3 Rogue Ability 12 +9 +4 +8 +4 Rogue Ability 13 +9 +4 +8 +4 Rogue Ability 14 +10 +4 +9 +4 Rogue Ability 15 +11 +5 +9 +5 2 Rogue Abilities 16 +12 +5 +10 +5 Rogue Ability 17 +12 +5 +10 +5 Rogue Ability 18 +13 +6 +11 +6 Rogue Ability 19 +14 +6 +11 +6 Rogue Ability 20 +15 +6 +12 +6 Rogue Ability [/code] The Rogue can then choose the archetype of rogue they are seeking to build and mold their abilities to that. For example if they want to train in Sneak Attack but not specialize in it, they can acquire only as much knowledge as they want in it. [color=darkorange][b][u]Sneak Attack[/u] (Ex):[/b][/color] The Rogue has trained in the specific tactics required to strike vital areas of an unaware target in such a way as to cause extra damage. This is the ability listed in the [u]Player’s Handbook[/u] and follows all of the standard Sneak Attack rules. The ability actually can be taken as 10 different abilities, taken in stages over the Rogue’s career. To achieve each level of Sneak Attack, in addition to the listed requirements, the Rogue must also have a minimum number of ranks in Knowledge (Physiology) as the level of Sneak Attack they wish to achieve. (Thus a Rogue wishing to take Sneak Attack III, must have at least 3 ranks in Knowledge (Physiology).) [b][I][color=red]Note:[/color][/I][/b][I][color=red] This is an additional class skill for rogues.[/color][/I] [b][I]Sneak Attack I:[/I][/b] When the Rogue takes this ability, it begins as Sneak Attack I. This ability grants +1d6 damage on sneak attacks. [b][I]Sneak Attack II: [/I][/b] If the Rogue has a Base Attack Bonus of +2 or higher and has Sneak Attack I, this ability grants an extra +1d6 damage on sneak attacks, raising their total extra damage to +2d6. [b][I]Sneak Attack III: [/I][/b] If the Rogue has a Base Attack Bonus of +3 or higher and has Sneak Attack II, this ability grants an extra +1d6 damage on sneak attacks, raising their total extra damage to +3d6. [b][I][color=red]ETC ON OUT TO…[/color][/I][/b] [b][I]Sneak Attack X: [/I][/b] If the Rogue has a Base Attack Bonus of +14 or higher and has Sneak Attack IX, this ability grants an extra +1d6 damage on sneak attacks, raising their total extra damage to +10d6. Some other non-typical abilities are: [b]Fighting Rogue…[/b] [color=darkorange][b][u]Blaze of Glory[/u] (Ex):[/b][/color] If the Rogue has a Base Attack of +10 or more, they may, once per day as a standard action adopt a base attack bonus equal to a Fighter of their character level. This lasts for a number of rounds equal to their Charisma modifier, but the rogue is fatigued for an equal number of rounds after using this ability. [color=darkorange][b][u]Dual Weapon Technique[/u] (Ex):[/b][/color] If the Rogue has a Base Attack Bonus of +4 or higher as well as having 6 ranks or more in Balance and a Dexterity score of at least 14, and when wearing light or no armor, they may fight with two weapons as if they had the feat Two-Weapon Fighting. This bonus is not gained when a Rogue is penalized their dexterity modifier, when they wear medium or heavy armor. [b]Wilderness Rogue…[/b] [color=darkorange][b][u]Camouflage[/u] (Ex):[/b][/color] If the rogue has 10 or more ranks in Hide and Survival, they may hide in any natural terrain even when without cover or concealment. [color=darkorange][b][u]Woodland Stride[/u] (Ex):[/b][/color] If the rogue has 10 or more ranks in both Move Silently and Survival, they may move through natural ground covered terrain (shrubs, thorns, etc.), at their normal speed and without suffering damage or other impairment. This does not provide protection from enchanted or magically manipulated areas. [b]Bounty/Investigator Rogue…[/b] [color=darkorange][b][u]Urban Tracking[/u] (Ex):[/b][/color] The rogue may take the Urban Tracking ability from the [u]Unearthed Arcana[/u] (p.56) as a bonus feat. They are also open to a Wide Range of Bonus feats such as Stealthy, Deft Strike, Agile, Negotiator, Fleet of Foot, Track, etc. etc. rather than being locked into the Sneak-Assassin of the core class. In the sorcerer I am trying to present archetype changes akin to the Battle Sorcerer as an overall template to the core concept, allowing their to be more variation from sorcerer to sorcerer. I can respect that, but I am currently working under the umbrella of working within the system’s constraints. Currently Clerics are a necessary and core part of the D&D system. Within that confine, the idea of a sorcerous priest could exist if someone wanted it to. As for the sorcerer treading on the druid this is very unlikely. The druid still retains all of their class abilities that a sorcerer would never have such as the defining class ability of Wild Shape, not to mention all of the various other abilities such as immunities, etc. Currently for a Nature Sorcerer I am leaning toward… [b]Benefits:[/b] * Gain Intermediate BAB * Gain new class skills: Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (nature), Listen, Spot and Survival, and 4 skill points * Gain Druid Spell list in addition to Sorcerer spell list * Gain Animal Companion instead of Familiar * Gain Light Armor Proficiency feat * Gain ability to cast in Light armor at no Arcane Spell Failure [b]Costs:[/b] * Reduce spell slots by 1 per spell level * Reduce spells known by 1 per spell level It is an interesting idea though very hard to attempt. There is far too much involved in the “Monk” class to manage this crossing easily without writing a whole new class such as the [I]Arcane Monk[/I] from AEG’s [u]MAGIC[/u] or some of the various Monk/Arcane crossover PrCs. The closest would be this very tiny tweak to the Battle Sorcerer… Unarmed Sorcerer [b]Benefits:[/b] * Increase HD from d4 to d8 * Increase BAB to Intermediate * Gain new class skills: Balance, Diplomacy, Knowledge (religion), Tumble * Gain Improved Unarmed Combat feat * Gain Light Armor Proficiency feat * Gain ability to cast in Light armor at no Arcane Spell Failure [b]Costs:[/b] * Reduce spell slots by 1 per spell level * Reduce spells known by 1 per spell level Then optimal spell choices become Touch attack and Buffing spells. Thoughts? [/QUOTE]

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