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UA: "Greyhawk" Initiative
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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 7165771" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>So, I know this isn't going to be a system I end up using. My players have a hard enough time not taking too many actions or following the order of their round right now, having them declare and roll and add and then end up not being able to do what they want to do.... it just doesn't work with my group.</p><p></p><p></p><p>However, looking over this discussion, I think there are two things that aren't being discussed that should be taken into consideration. </p><p></p><p></p><p>First, spellcasting and especially that disruption option. I know for people who come from the ye olden days of vancian and losing the slot and taking five rounds to cast a spell this may seem very lax, but it is actually kind of brutal and it is worse for those who don't have cantrips. </p><p></p><p>For example, the Ranger wants to shoot a foe with his bow, roll 1d4. But, if he wants to hunter's mark them then shoot them it is 1d4+1d10. If they need to move first then we've got 1d4+1d6+1d10. Now, during this dash to the pillar, hunter's mark and shoot you could end up rolling much lower than the goblin who just shoots you. </p><p></p><p>And with the variant now that you've been hit you can only cast a cantrip... and you don't have cantrips because you are a ranger. And what about a 4 elements monk? Are we considering their ki abilities "casting a spell"? What do they do if their use of Shatter or Fist of Unbroken Air is disrupted... and shatter is very different from Fist so how are we going to decide that one? </p><p></p><p>This system looks decently simple with archer, melee and wizard or cleric, but Rogues, Monks, Rangers who are casting, I mean, there are a lot of scenarios that start getting odd.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The second thing no one is talking about is how this works for the DM running multiple monsters. </p><p></p><p>They recommend rolling as a group, but that means that all your monsters are taking the same actions. How often is that really the case? </p><p></p><p>Ive run goblin combats where I've had some enemies move and attack, some attack, some shoot, some shoot and hide, some run and hide. Each reacting to a different set of players. Two or three groups might be manageable, but if you end up with a spellcaster, some melee brutes and some snipers you could quickly end up with five groups, and there is an interesting discussion to be had about spells that cause grappling or restraint that take an action to end. That is clearly a d6 roll on the initiative, but if they get hit before they act that raises questions about how being webbed effects their choice to move and attack, could they attack the web and then move anyways?</p><p></p><p>And of course, monster actions that don't fit into the typical mold of actions. Dragon's Breath on a 1d6? </p><p></p><p>Actually, hold that, what do we do with Legendary actions? Do we treat them like reactions, unaffected by initiative despite being movement, attacks, and spellcasting. Wingbeat is a save and move, is that a melee attack or a movement action? What about a spell they can cast at-will, if they take damage and we are using the variant does it count as a cantrip for them, so the Bheur Hag taking damage can still cast Hold Person? </p><p></p><p>I think it is very possible to say that for every problem the players might have, the DM is going to end up with three times the problems, because they have three times the monsters and decision points that the players are going to have</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 7165771, member: 6801228"] So, I know this isn't going to be a system I end up using. My players have a hard enough time not taking too many actions or following the order of their round right now, having them declare and roll and add and then end up not being able to do what they want to do.... it just doesn't work with my group. However, looking over this discussion, I think there are two things that aren't being discussed that should be taken into consideration. First, spellcasting and especially that disruption option. I know for people who come from the ye olden days of vancian and losing the slot and taking five rounds to cast a spell this may seem very lax, but it is actually kind of brutal and it is worse for those who don't have cantrips. For example, the Ranger wants to shoot a foe with his bow, roll 1d4. But, if he wants to hunter's mark them then shoot them it is 1d4+1d10. If they need to move first then we've got 1d4+1d6+1d10. Now, during this dash to the pillar, hunter's mark and shoot you could end up rolling much lower than the goblin who just shoots you. And with the variant now that you've been hit you can only cast a cantrip... and you don't have cantrips because you are a ranger. And what about a 4 elements monk? Are we considering their ki abilities "casting a spell"? What do they do if their use of Shatter or Fist of Unbroken Air is disrupted... and shatter is very different from Fist so how are we going to decide that one? This system looks decently simple with archer, melee and wizard or cleric, but Rogues, Monks, Rangers who are casting, I mean, there are a lot of scenarios that start getting odd. The second thing no one is talking about is how this works for the DM running multiple monsters. They recommend rolling as a group, but that means that all your monsters are taking the same actions. How often is that really the case? Ive run goblin combats where I've had some enemies move and attack, some attack, some shoot, some shoot and hide, some run and hide. Each reacting to a different set of players. Two or three groups might be manageable, but if you end up with a spellcaster, some melee brutes and some snipers you could quickly end up with five groups, and there is an interesting discussion to be had about spells that cause grappling or restraint that take an action to end. That is clearly a d6 roll on the initiative, but if they get hit before they act that raises questions about how being webbed effects their choice to move and attack, could they attack the web and then move anyways? And of course, monster actions that don't fit into the typical mold of actions. Dragon's Breath on a 1d6? Actually, hold that, what do we do with Legendary actions? Do we treat them like reactions, unaffected by initiative despite being movement, attacks, and spellcasting. Wingbeat is a save and move, is that a melee attack or a movement action? What about a spell they can cast at-will, if they take damage and we are using the variant does it count as a cantrip for them, so the Bheur Hag taking damage can still cast Hold Person? I think it is very possible to say that for every problem the players might have, the DM is going to end up with three times the problems, because they have three times the monsters and decision points that the players are going to have [/QUOTE]
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