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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 7857798" data-attributes="member: 6750235">I'm not the one doing that.  I gave valid points that you avoided.A person cannot assume there is advanced knowledge as a standard to be used.  Applying something that is not standard as if it is becomes a bad argument.  Instead of you repeating what you have been saying, please acknowledge and respond to the points I made like I did with your assumption on knowledge predicating spell swapping.It's not an assumption.  It's how play goes. It's the result of playing these classes many times at many levels under different DM's in various campaigns.There's no assumption in having made the choices the player wanted when he or she built the character.  There's no assumption in stating "Crawford said the game can handle this".There's certainly no assumptions in pointing out the actual mechanics and spells lists, and how that differs from spell preparation.  That's stating facts.So far all that's been given back is speculation that doesn't match my game experience or current testing. How does the sorcerer know the coming situation?  That's an assumption.It's not spells.  It's spell.  It's spells with wizard, and as I pointed out earlier, it's a spell of equal level.  The wizard can swap out expeditious retreat and alter self for invisibility and mass suggestion, and keep soul cage and true seeing when sneaking into a castle the next day.  The sorcerer can grab invisibility or mass suggestion even though both would be useful, and mass suggestion means giving up true seeing or whatever 6th level spell.These aren't even remotely close to equal abilities like they are being portrayed.  It's like saying the martial adept feat is equal to the battle master archetype.Spells match the subclass and meta-magic taken.  It doesn't matter if a person thinks (insert spell here) is better in a given situation if it doesn't match up with the other class choices made.  Spells are optimized for the character.There are a lot of spells on the sorcerer list that are not valid choices.  It's one of those things where the number of spells known impacts the number of valid choices available.  Each spell tends to be very deliberate in it's choice and when you say swapping in something is useful it can be but it's also swapping out something useful.If I have shield, magic missile, sleep, shatter, and levitate known what do you think I'm going to give up just because I happen to know there's a door with a lock coming up the next day?  The sorcerer doesn't have that many situational spells in the spell list in the first place worth swapping in, and it's a challenge picking something to swap out.  Eventually I'll have room to swap out magic missile and sleep, but the room isn't available to give those up unless it's really needed, and I would need to give up shatter or levitate for knock.  That's downgrading by necessity, not upgrading those spells known.Out of the first and second level spells, knock might be a forced issue on rare occasion.  Comprehend languages is likely to be a more commonly forced issue.  Sleep is reasonably swapped out because it's either really good or useless, which has more to do with sleep than the mechanic.  Other spells fall into the "hell no", "why bother", and "someday when I have more room to add them" categories.  That's how the limited spells known impact swapping.  There just isn't enough leeway in spells known for giving up good spells to add situational spells.The grass is always greener.I don't miss magical secrets on other casters because they don't need it as much as bards and bards don't get it until 10th level anyway when they often add more bard spells anyway because it's crowded with good spells like greater restoration, raise dead, mass cure, animate objects, and more.  I miss having the extra skill benefits and sometimes bardic inspiration when I see someone fail a save.  What weapon skills?  Bards get some bonus proficiencies.  That seems rather pointless to miss on warlock, wizard, or sorcerer.I also miss meta-magic on a wizard or warlock.  On a sorcerer I miss invocations and arcane recovery.  I miss subclass features like portent.  I don't wish I could swap my spells.  I miss having more spells.  Swapping one doesn't give more spells.  Different classes are different but your analogy of different but not painful for some and painful for others doesn't match up to the point that was raised.</blockquote>

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