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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tovec" data-source="post: 6318585" data-attributes="member: 95493">Bah!I've stayed out of the conversation (about second wind) thus far because I think it only relates to DoaM tangentially, but now it seems we've hit the actual topic of this board and so....Except this isn't what DoaM is..It is wearing down your opponent... in a single round and killing them through sheer "wearing down" aka "tiring" without ever actually landing a solid blow. That doesn't make any sense. No one, and I mean NO ONE, dies in a single round against a relatively equal opponent through sheer exhaustion on the FIRST ROUND without actually being hit. That is just insane on the face of it - but it is what you want us to buy with DoaM and "tiredness."Regardless of that, a fight between two opponents who are wearing eachother down would not be: (a) solely one sided - the fighter with the two handed weapon is able to wear you down, but not the guy with a longsword; (b) equal to that person's STR instead of your own CON - I'm being worn down.. but that wearing has nothing to do with my own physical stamina; (c) IS NOT REPRESENTATIVE OF HOW HP ACTUALLY WORK OTHERWISE!Simply put, HP doesn't currently measure "wearing down" or tiring out. It doesn't. It could, but it doesn't. Every hit is meat, that is why poison weapons work. How badly is up for debate (the old "everything after the first point is abstraction" argument), but the fact that poison works means it isn't a wearing factor as much as it is a DAMAGING factor .. thus why it is called damage.And as to why we "simulationists" are okay with not having penalties for being worn down even though it is more realistic. I think that has to do with it being less fun. Basically, "death spirals," while perhaps more realistic, generally don't make the game more enjoyable and so they are ignored. Though if you really want to make the argument that they should be included that is fine - but it isn't the argument you are making right now. That of course ignores that certain amounts of death spiraling does exist, though it is usually a optional module instead of the primary rules - where it belongs IMHO - and where DoaM belongs too.If instituting DoaM why not make lopping off limbs mandatory for a certain style of weapon too? So, let's say anyone with a greataxe now has a 100% chance of taking off somebody's head on a successful hit. That is certainly a better deal than being "worn down" on misses constantly, since you aren't guaranteed to actually hit for the head-cutting attack - unlike DoaM. And mine is actually LESS deadly to that kobold on the first round of combat. But no, I suggest BOTH of these tactics which don't make a whole lot of sense be relegated to modules to be added on for groups/DMs that like them - instead of being the automatic default for the entire game.</blockquote>

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