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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tovec" data-source="post: 6318869" data-attributes="member: 95493">I realize your response was predicated upon second wind and not damage on a miss. But as I said last time, it is tangentially related. You view HP as being a "tiring" scale when it is outlined as a damage scale. That informs you views on the subject. As I said last time, I don't see that those views are backed up by the game. We could alter the game, 13th age certainly does (as does many aspects of 4e) but the game that 5e is doesn't work that way. The DoaM mechanic shouldn't exist in the 5e system because it doesn't match. It relates to how you see HP and so I latched onto it, I realize it may have come off as taking your comments out of context but I wrote much more in the way of reply than you did to start me off so I think that both our arguments stand for themselves.And to this I say, NO it is NOT obvious that is what is happening. In fact it goes counter to everything that the words, the rules, and basically everything except for the (poor) description of the 'power' say they work. The game isn't written in those terms. You can certainly reflavour the heck out of ANYTHING to make it work a different way in the fiction surrounding it but that doesn't change the fact that without a description of what the power does, it wouldn't be described that way by existing terminology.The fact that you can cause EVERY KOBOLD AND GOBLIN YOU EVER MEET to trip over and kill themselves on a rock on the first round, ON A MISS, doesn't mean the power suddenly makes sense. Those conditions don't make sense. Consistency is a key problem I have with it and it isn't solved by these repeated attempts to reflavour and thus justify the power. That reflavouring isn't there originally and doesn't work.And YES Miss as in an attack that fails to beat the target's AC does certainly mean MISS and fail to hit that target person. I know this because EVERY OTHER POWER WORKS THIS WAY. However this particular power goes counter to that saying that the fighter never misses. Not one a 1. Not when the miss would instantly defeat the enemy. Not when they aren't wearing armor and thus a miss IS a complete whiff. No, the fighter can't miss and can't fail to kill that kobold .. ever. The fighter without this power can fail to miss and fail to kill the kobold, strange isn't it?I find this especially dismissive. It doesn't address the arguments of DoaM and basically tells someone to go screw off since they are criticizing a mechanic of a game system you happen to like. If you weren't a Mod I would consider reporting you to one. Wow. Way to attack the content of his character instead of the argument he is making. It doesn't matter if he has the power to disband groups or not, the fact that he finds this mechanic so poisonous should perhaps be discussed instead of just saying 'I'm sure it exists in PF, so go play someone else and be gone.' Wow. This may not have been your intent but it is certainly my inference and even though I'm not DDNFan I'm offended.The power we are primarily discussing is a fighter power and only one such power. Though the arguments made against it apply to ALL DoaM. I think I'm not alone in the worry that if something like this becomes standard that it will then be used as an argument to put more of it in other places. So while this tumor is relatively small, I believe we should still cut it out.It is not an accurate comparison. It isn't calculated the same way. It is a static figure. It is based on the fighter's strength. And the times that spells for save for half allow a save (evasion/uncanny dodge) don't work for saving against the fighter. Further DoaM doesn't target anything, and autohits. And finally spells are limited, magical, and worked under different rules. So, while the "save for half" and "damage on a miss" surface aspects are the same, what is "acceptable" for one doesn't apply to the other - no matter if people wished they were the same.I think if you want an informed opinion on this that you should go read the many other threads on this subforum. You'll gather some bits here but we've gone over it so much that there is very little else to say. In fact I gather that most people have given up, not through consensus but because no headway was made. So, I recommend you read some of the longer threads to see the common opinions, arguments, counter-arguments and inform your own opinion.Part of the problem is that it isn't realistic but there are so many more, and better, arguments that I can't give justice in a simple answer here.My main focus is and has been that the fighter can kill most low level monsters in a single round, on the fist attack, without needing to know the result of the damage, or the result of the die. Refluffing their attack they may as well sneeze and the kobold falls over dead - according to pemerton - having hit his head on a rock and died, or possibly simply died from exhaustion from being in a fight with a first level fighter for a whole fraction of a round. I find that stupid on MANY levels, but yes I also think it is unrealistic and not for the sneeze.</blockquote>

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