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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celtavian" data-source="post: 5454836" data-attributes="member: 5834">reNo martial arts for the ninja and no swordsmanship for the samurai automatically kill the class for me. If Pathfinder doesn't want to do the class justice, then why bother making them? It is on historical record that hand to hand fighting was an important part of training for the ninja and swordsmanship for the samurai. Failing to incorporate that element into both classes is moving away from Pathfinder closer adherence to simulation versus balance for class design. I don't care for it.Do the classes right or don't do them at all.I don't mind when Pathfinder adds to a class for world flavor. But when they fail to properly model the basics of an archetype, it makes the class hollow and false.Why do people love ninjas and samurais? Just for the name?No.A big reason the samurai is loved is the katana. The class should focus on a two combat paths: sword mastery and archery mastery, coupled with mounted combat. That's the base samurai besides all the flavor material. That should be what the class focuses on.Now for the ninja it is martial arts, acrobatics, and assassination. That is the classic ninja.A ninja should be designed as though it were a monk/rogue with different weapons useable with the flurry. It should not be designed without martial arts as part of the class and the common weapons associated with the ninja.A ninja is more about variety than sheer combat power. Part of that variety should be incorporating usable and effective martial arts.Any ninja designed without incorporating their hand to hand style and weapons into the common class path is a failure by Pathfinder, period, end of story. Utter and complete failure.Just like any samurai that doesn't incorporate the sword fighting techniques such such as iajutsu and the the precision cutting or the extraordinary mounted archery is as two different optional paths is a failure of the samurai.It's very easy to design both classes as their combat focus is known by anyone who even slightly studies either archetype. I hope Paizo does not produce a fail ninja like WotC did.There are a few things a real ninja should be able to do:1. Fight in hand to hand as effectively as with weapons.2. Grapple an opponent to silence them and choke them until they die.3. Use poisonBoth of those are easy to incorporate into the class without making it overpowered using the bonus feat system.DO NOT FAIL PAIZO!!!A ninja without martial arts aka hand to hand combat is not a ninja to anyone that loves the archetype.A samurai that can't draw his sword and cut super fast and with extreme precision or plant an arrow into a bullseye from horseback isn't a samurai. They don't necessarily need to do both, but one or the other.Once again I say, DO NOT FAIL PAIZO!!On either of these archetypes.For those of us that will use them if they are done right, we demand martial arts for the ninja and swordsmanship or archery for the samurai.Get it done. Don't mess up the two best known archetypes of the Asian world.I will say it again hoping that this information gets to Paizo.Do not make a ninja without martial arts of you are will have failed. The most attractive part of playing a ninja for anyone that loves them is fighting hand to hand on a stealthy assassination mission. That's the fun of a ninja. Being able to stealthily sneak in, choke out some guard with your arm or garrote, and keep on going is what playing a ninja is all about. That's the fun of it.Don't mess it up. Please, for the love of the gaming gods, don't mess up the ninja like WotC did. No martial arts is an utter failure by Paizo when it comes to the ninja.No martial arts for ninja = failureIf your game designers can look into their hearts and design a ninja that can't fight hand to hand, they don't really love ninjas. I don't care if the ninja is imbalanced, what I care about is if the ninja is done right. It's up to us DMs to control class access and it's up to you Paizo to provide us with a ninja that fits what all us ninja lovers dream of playing, at least at the most basic level. Don't make a "ninja in name only" like WotC did. Make a real darn ninja according to what we love about them. Martial arts must be included.I cannot state enough how important the ability to effectively hand to hand fight means to the ninja class. You better incorporate it or I will spit on your ninja and say to my players "Sure you can play that piece of garbage class so called 'ninja'. Don't sell me that is anything like a real ninja. He's some stupid class given the name 'ninja', but doesn't much represent the archetype well."Get the ninja right, Paizo. For the love of the gaming gods, get the ninja right.</blockquote>

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