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Message: <blockquote data-quote="RedShirtNo5" data-source="post: 85532" data-attributes="member: 173">TWF and thrown melee weaponsOK, I suggested adding #23 to the list, so I'll provide a complete explanation why.  I agree with Spikey that two weapon fighting is only for melee combat, but there was a debate at one time.  CRGreathouse - I didn't find any rule support at all for the idea that you can't combine an extra off-hand thrown weapon with an extra attack from rapid shot.  You need quick draw and take large penalty, but I can't see anything prohibiting it.  I would say that you can't use rapid shot with each hand - the feat gives you only "one" extra attack.Artoomis, submitted for your consideration.-RedShirt23.  How does fighting with two weapons work with thrown melee weapons?Best Advice:  You can get an extra attack by throwing a weapon using your off hand.  However, the Two Weapon Fighting feat does not reduce the penalties for fighting with two weapons in this circumstance [disputed issue 1].  You can draw a second weapon in the time it would take to draw one weapon.   You can also use rapid shot to get an extra attack with one of your hands [disputed issue 2].Results:A 6th level fighter with Rapid Shot and Quick Draw could throw 3 daggers (three from the primary hand) at +4/+4/-1.A 6th level fighter with TWF, Ambidexterity and Quick Draw could throw 3 daggers (two from the primary hand, one from the off hand) at +2/-3/+2.A 6th level fighter with TWF, Ambidexterity, Rapid Shot and Quick Draw could throw 4 daggers (three from the primary hand, one from the off hand) at +0/+0/-5/+0.The Rules:  PHB p. 96 "Melee weapons are used for making melee attacks, though some of them can be thrown as well.  Ranged weapons are thrown weapons or projectile weapons that are not effective in melee. "PHB p. 100 "The Two-Weapon Fighting feat does not reduce these penalties because it represents skill with melee weapons, not ranged weapons."PHB p. 128 "If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, a combatant can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one."The Sage: Thown melee weapons are treated as ranged weapons for both Two-Weapon Fighting (i.e., feat does not help reduce penalties) and for Rapid Shot (i.e., feat does permit extra attack (assuming you have quickdraw)).Other WotC/former WotC opinions: An example in Dragon discusses using rapid show to throw a weapon after making  melee attacks with TWF.  Penalties were -2 for all attacks.Argument Against(1): Nowhere is it stated that "The Two-Weapon Fighting feat is only for melee combat."  The only rule is that "The Two-Weapon Fighting feat ... represents skill with melee weapons, not ranged weapons."  The definition on PHB p.96 is that "Ranged weapons are [thrown weapons or projectile weapons] that are not effective in melee" (parsing added).  Daggers, hand axes and the like are "effective in melee".  Therefore, daggers should be classified as melee weapons, regardless of whether they are thown or not.  Consequently, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat reduces the penalties if you try to thow daggers from both your primary and off hand. Argument Against(2): Permitting extra attacks from both Rapid Shot and an off-hand attack is too powerful.Argument For(1):  The above argument places too much emphasis on the definition on PHB p.96.  The real issue is the concept of ranged attacks and melee attacks.  Whether a weapon is a ranged weapon or a melee weapon can depend on how it is being used.  Even focusing on the definition, it can be parsed as "Ranged weapons are [thrown weapons] or [projectile weapons that are not effective in melee]."  Thus, thrown melee weapons should count as ranged weapons when they are used for a ranged attack.  Consequently, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat does not reduce the penalties if you try to thow daggers from both your primary and off hand. Argument For (2): The rules are silent and provide no reason to prohibit getting extra attacks from both Rapid Shot and your off-hand.  Also, combining an off-hand attack with rapid shot gives 2 extra attacks at -6, which is worse than  the -5 penalty that Monks get for Lightning Fists in S&F. Area of Agreement: Throwable melee weapons count as melee weapons when being drawn.  Thus, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one.[edit to get rid of a double negative, add issue #2]</blockquote>

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