IronWolf
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And the Ultimate Magic Words of Power Playtest is out!
http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lbnc
http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lbnc
Paizo Site said:
Ultimate Magic - Words of Power Playtest
- Thread starter IronWolf
- Start date
BryonD
Hero
Obviously shooting from the hip here.....
I like the flavor a lot. This is a good classic approach that is pleasant to see.
It seems that having the same number of slots, but with also the same number of words as former spells, only now with mix and match means the same power times a bit more flexibility, so a small upgrade. I'd think I'd like to see it reigned in a bit.
But, as with so much of pathfinder, the spirit of the concept is well captured, and that easily trumps small balance issues.
First blush : A-
I like the flavor a lot. This is a good classic approach that is pleasant to see.
It seems that having the same number of slots, but with also the same number of words as former spells, only now with mix and match means the same power times a bit more flexibility, so a small upgrade. I'd think I'd like to see it reigned in a bit.
But, as with so much of pathfinder, the spirit of the concept is well captured, and that easily trumps small balance issues.
First blush : A-
Chronologist
First Post
Flexible but complex. I hope there are more base effects than this, because there were things I found lacking: Healing, undead creation and control, creating objects, shapeshifting, causing negative levels, teleporting, growing and shrinking things... just to name a few. I think that's kinda weird when this is supposed to be catered to clerics as well as sorcerers.
The system of points and the level of each effect could have been explained and worded a lot better. In addition, the maximum size of the effects is too small, I'd have liked for the option of having huge spell with less power behind it.
Overall, I like the concept, but right now the only viable way to use it is to be a blasting Sorcerer who has massive versatility when it comes to damage spells. Until more effects are added and the math's cleaned up a bit, I can't see myself playing it any time soon.
The system of points and the level of each effect could have been explained and worded a lot better. In addition, the maximum size of the effects is too small, I'd have liked for the option of having huge spell with less power behind it.
Overall, I like the concept, but right now the only viable way to use it is to be a blasting Sorcerer who has massive versatility when it comes to damage spells. Until more effects are added and the math's cleaned up a bit, I can't see myself playing it any time soon.
Chronologist, if you go and check out Jason's introduction to things you'll notice that this is intentionally a very focused playtest. They are only giving us wizard/sorcerer effects, and at that, only some of the more postent, damage/dealing ones, specifically to get an idea of power-levels/math, etc... All of those other types of spell effects you were talking about will be incorporated into the system, but they are simply not part of this aspect of the playtest.
Chronologist
First Post
Okay, I must have missed that part. Regardless, I don't feel like I could accurately playtest this unless I had all of the spell effects to play around with. Maybe that's just me, but I kinda need to see the whole thing before I can really judge it or use it.
As it is, it's a standard versatile blaster method. With more versatility... at this point, I can't decide whether it'll be complex but fun, or if the versatility will break the game and lead to unbalanced characters.
As it is, it's a standard versatile blaster method. With more versatility... at this point, I can't decide whether it'll be complex but fun, or if the versatility will break the game and lead to unbalanced characters.
I, for one, am wondering whether they're using this as a sort of test of an Epic Spells system: the way you combine seedswords and form a spell effect just immediately made me think of that. Think of it this way: given that words have levels, and can be combined to make any desired spell effect, what's to stop them from just adding more words of higher levels later? In fact, even with the existing system and words it's easy to come up with 10th or higher level spells, if you just have a point cost for those higher levels.
Chronologist
First Post
True... in fact, if you restructures the system slightly, you could create an entirely new system for spellcasting, based less on spell levels and more on just how strong, and how many, effects you can use at once in a spell.
Maybe, if done right, casters could (dare I say it) finally be balanced with non-casters. As it is now, there's still a pretty large divide. But, for a moment, imagine this:
Casters gradually receive more spell effects over time. As they level up, the total number of "points" any spell can be made of increases gradually, in a semi-linear fashion (small boosts at 6th, 11th, and 16th level). Caster's don't have spell slots, they can cast their spells as often as they want each day. Certain effects, like save-or-die, and healing spells, have maximum uses per day.
If this was made to work, oh man, that would be something, wouldn't it?
Maybe, if done right, casters could (dare I say it) finally be balanced with non-casters. As it is now, there's still a pretty large divide. But, for a moment, imagine this:
Casters gradually receive more spell effects over time. As they level up, the total number of "points" any spell can be made of increases gradually, in a semi-linear fashion (small boosts at 6th, 11th, and 16th level). Caster's don't have spell slots, they can cast their spells as often as they want each day. Certain effects, like save-or-die, and healing spells, have maximum uses per day.
If this was made to work, oh man, that would be something, wouldn't it?
RangerWickett
Legend
It makes me want to fiddle with the old Elements of Magic system again. I like your idea, Chronologist, about having unlimited use of magic up to a certain power level -- probably doing less damage than warriors, but with more utility.
Also think, if you have multiple spellcasters, they ought to be able to pool resources together to cast rituals, no?
Also think, if you have multiple spellcasters, they ought to be able to pool resources together to cast rituals, no?
Chronologist
First Post
Thanks for the complement, RangerWickett.
I kinda feel like magic should be a little less about the BOOM and more about the subtle, utility stuff like invisibility, reading magic, dispelling, warding, that kinda stuff. Putting Mages into more of a supportive, yet necessary, role in a party is kinda my whole idea.
Warriors can swing their swords all day, why can't mages use their spells all day? Sure the bigger stuff like teleporting and death effects would be limited (since they take up a lot more effort), but I don't see why a simple jolt of lightning would be so hard to do repeatedly.
A tentative rule for pooling resources would be something like: Casting as a group requires a leader (i.e. character with the highest number of "points" available. Each member adds 1/2 their point total to that amount, which can at best double the leader's total. In addition, for every mage that contributes at least, say, 1/4 the point total, increase the DC and caster level by 1 (to a maximum of +4 with 4 strong mages assisting).
Yeah, this could definitely work. What if the progression of maximum point for a spell was, say, 3 + the caster's level? Maybe Sorcerers would get a slightly faster progression, but know a limited number of effects. I'd like it if the Wizards could make them up on the fly too, so every caster would be spontaneous. They'd just have to design the whole spell ahead of time.
Rather than having level-appropriate spell effects (i.e. level 4 effect does 1d6 acid damage per level), it'd be like the eidolon, where each effect would cost a certain number of "points" to add to a spell. Spells would start out being automatically Self or Touch, it would cost more from there.
Instead of learning level-appropriate effects, casters would learn a number of effects whole cost equaled a set value. So, a sorcerer could learn one or two big powerful effects that cost nearly everything they had, or they could learn several weaker effects instead.
Wow... i was just kinda on a roll. Any comments?
I kinda feel like magic should be a little less about the BOOM and more about the subtle, utility stuff like invisibility, reading magic, dispelling, warding, that kinda stuff. Putting Mages into more of a supportive, yet necessary, role in a party is kinda my whole idea.
Warriors can swing their swords all day, why can't mages use their spells all day? Sure the bigger stuff like teleporting and death effects would be limited (since they take up a lot more effort), but I don't see why a simple jolt of lightning would be so hard to do repeatedly.
A tentative rule for pooling resources would be something like: Casting as a group requires a leader (i.e. character with the highest number of "points" available. Each member adds 1/2 their point total to that amount, which can at best double the leader's total. In addition, for every mage that contributes at least, say, 1/4 the point total, increase the DC and caster level by 1 (to a maximum of +4 with 4 strong mages assisting).
Yeah, this could definitely work. What if the progression of maximum point for a spell was, say, 3 + the caster's level? Maybe Sorcerers would get a slightly faster progression, but know a limited number of effects. I'd like it if the Wizards could make them up on the fly too, so every caster would be spontaneous. They'd just have to design the whole spell ahead of time.
Rather than having level-appropriate spell effects (i.e. level 4 effect does 1d6 acid damage per level), it'd be like the eidolon, where each effect would cost a certain number of "points" to add to a spell. Spells would start out being automatically Self or Touch, it would cost more from there.
Instead of learning level-appropriate effects, casters would learn a number of effects whole cost equaled a set value. So, a sorcerer could learn one or two big powerful effects that cost nearly everything they had, or they could learn several weaker effects instead.
Wow... i was just kinda on a roll. Any comments?
Ambrus
Explorer
A first read through gave me an odd impression of the system. It being piecemeal (not necessarily a bad thing) gives those who use it added versatility over regular casters at the cost of... versatility.
Consider that traditional spellcasters have a huge selection of pre-existing spells from which they can choose. To become a wordcaster however, they have to give up access to all those spells to instead choose from a narrower selection of combinable words. I understand that there will eventually be more words to choose from, but it seems doubtful that there can ever be enough words to replicate all of the effects possible with traditional spells. So, sure, a wordcaster has added versatility with those word/effects with which he's familiar, but at the expense of all the niche effects provided by traditional spells.
So one type of versatility is, in effect, traded for another kind of versatility. That to say I'm not yet sold on the notion.
Consider that traditional spellcasters have a huge selection of pre-existing spells from which they can choose. To become a wordcaster however, they have to give up access to all those spells to instead choose from a narrower selection of combinable words. I understand that there will eventually be more words to choose from, but it seems doubtful that there can ever be enough words to replicate all of the effects possible with traditional spells. So, sure, a wordcaster has added versatility with those word/effects with which he's familiar, but at the expense of all the niche effects provided by traditional spells.
So one type of versatility is, in effect, traded for another kind of versatility. That to say I'm not yet sold on the notion.
