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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Khaalis" data-source="post: 6371017" data-attributes="member: 2167">Ok, been working on this reply for a while now. Sorry it wasn't done sooner.First - I support the idea of a Brawler, Pugilist, Martial Artist character idea that isn't a "Monk". Just wanted to let you know you aren't alone.Ok, now onto some analysis.TAVERN BRAWLER:* +1 STR or CON (max 20)* Proficiency: Improvised Weapons, Unarmed Strikes* Unarmed Strikes = 1d4 dmg* Bonus Action can be used to grapplevs. BRAWLING:* Proficiency: Improvised Weapons, Unarmed Strikes* Unarmed Strikes = 1d4 dmg* Gains Monk's damage progression for Unarmed Strikes & Improvised Weapons* "1-2 Punch" ability* "Wrestling" ability* Magical armor/gauntlets count as magical unarmed strikesWow. That's a lot.Firstly, I have to say it steps a little too much on the Tavern Brawler's feet and possibly dips too much into the monk (though see below). The first thing I'd do is decide the focus of the concept. Personally I'd go with Unarmed Combatant and drop the Improvised Weapons aspect, especially if the Unarmed damage is already the same as a weapon. This still leaves something that could be acquired by the feat if it was also taken. Remember the Fighting Style isn't a feat replacement.Secondly, I have to point out that this is just simply too much stuff to give as a Fighting Style. The existing Fighting Styles are simple bonuses.(e.g: +1 to AC / +2 to attack with a specific weapon type / +2 to damage with a specific weapon type / Re-roll 1's and 2's on damage dice / Impose Disadvantage on an attack / add STAT damage on off-hand attacks.)Thus BRAWLING would need to fit into this same pattern.1) Fighter's don't need to be Given proficiency in Unarmed attacks as they are considered a Simple Weapon for sake of proficiency.2) To be viable the strikes need to deal 1d4 damage.Thus I'd go with the following as the Fighting Style.BRAWLING: You gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls you make with unarmed and fist weapon attacks.Technically you haven't jumped up to being equal to a monk's 1d4 base damage yet, but it encourages the use of "fist weapons" (see below) which is more fitting as a Fighter Style but not totally necessary as it still make your unarmed damage 3+Stat where a Monk's average is 2.5+Stat, so still on par and slightly better as its less swingy.Now onto the Martial Archetype...  Considering how much you wanted to include in the Fighting Style we should start there. Since this is a "Monk multiclass substitute subclass" (much like the Eldritch Knight is a Wizard multiclass substitute subclass) we'll begin with the 3rd level ability basically being an adaptation of the 'Martial Arts' monk ability.BRUISERYou are an up close, in your face, grim and gritty combatant.PUGILIST  (Level 3)As the level 1 monk's "MARTIAL ARTS" with the following changes.* All references of "Monk Weapons" becomes "Fist Weapons" (Fist Weapons: armored gauntlets, cestus, katar [or punching dagger], knuckledusters, spiked gauntlets, etc. [simple light weapons likely ranging from 1d4 to 1d6 in damage and can cover bludgeoning, piercing and slashing]).* "You gain the following benefits while you are unarmed or wielding fist weapons and you aren't wielding a shield."   (This wording drops the armor restriction.)* Restrict the Scaling Damage (as taking it as-is stealing too much from the monk) reducing it to:  1d4 @ 3rd / 1d6 @ 8th / 1d8 @ 16th.This still makes Tavern Brawler a desirable feat rather than subsuming the whole feat into the class, as it would still grant you:* +1 STR or CON (max 20)* Proficiency: Improvised Weapons* Bonus Action can be used to grapple (aka Wrestling)UNARMORED DEFENSE - I would drop this completely (replaced with "Pugilist"). With the change to "Pugilist" allowing the fighter to "brawl" in armor, this is unnecessary and basically makes them a Monk again, not a fighter.  It also makes this type of character viable.<img src="http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20110831044016/forgottenrealms/images/3/35/Thibbledorf_Pwent.jpg" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " data-size="" style="" />COUNTER PUNCH, UPPERCUT, TKO* Some of these are too over powered while others are underpowered. For instance Counter Punch at level 7 is the same thing but better damage as a Barbarian's 14th level Retaliation. At the same time Uppercut is only 1 of three possible results for a Monk's Open Hand Technique.* These seem to be more like maneuvers that could be condensed down (using existing mechanics as examples), so here is what I might do...SUCKER PUNCH (Level 7)At 7th level, you learn how to place your unarmed attacks for the maximum impact. Once on each of your turns when you hit a creature with an unarmed or fist weapon attack, you can cause the attack to deal an extra 1d8 damage to the target.DIRTY FIGHTINGAt 10th level, you can use your unpredictable fighting style to make viscous attacks against your foe. Whenever you hit a creature with an unarmed attack or a fist weapon, you can impose one of the following effects on the target:* It must make a Dexterity saving throw or be knocked prone.* It must make a Strength saving throw. If it fails, you can push it up to 15 feet away from you.* It must make a Constitution saving throw or be stunned until the end of your next turn.The saving throw DC is calculated as follows: 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Strength or Dexterity modifier (your choice).COUNTER-PUNCHAt 15th level, when you take damage from a creature that is within 5 feet of you, you can use your reaction to make an unarmed or fist weapon attack against that creature.Lastly...SURVIVOR - Straight from the Champion. While it works, its not unique. Is that bad? I guess its personal taste, but 5E has tried to make each subclass unique in its abilities from others in the same class. If you want to make this subclass unique from other fighters, you could again look at mimicing other existing mechanics. If you follow the "Monk Multiclass" theme, I would give them the monk's OPPORTUNIST ability at level 18.So in summary here are the changes I'd suggest and may likely use for myself.NEW WEAPON GROUP:FIST WEAPONSFist weapons is a weapon grouping akin to "monk weapons". It includes reskinned weapon names such as armored gauntlets, cestus, katar [or punching dagger], knuckledusters, spiked gauntlets, etc. These are all Simple Weapons with the Finesse and Light properties and could range from 1d4 to 1d6 in damage and can cover bludgeoning, piercing and slashing damage types. Examples:* Armored Gauntlet: 1d6 bludgeoning / Finesse, Light* Cestus: 1d6 slashining / Finesse, Light* Katar: 1d6 piercing or slashing / Finesse, Light* Knuckledusters: 1d4 bludgeoning / Finesse, Light* Spiked Gauntlet: 1d6 piercing / Finesse, LightNEW FIGHTING STYLE:BRAWLINGYou gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls you make with unarmed and fist weapon attacks.NEW MARTIAL ARCHETYPE:BRUISERPUGILISTStarting when you choose this archetype at 3rd level, your experience with brawling has given you a mastery of combat styles that use unarmed strikes and fist weapons.You gain the following benefits while you are unarmed or wielding fist weapons and you aren't wielding a shield.* You can use Dexterity instead of Strength for the attack and damage rolls of your unarmed and fist weapon attacks.* You can roll d4 in place of the normal damage of your unarmed strike or fist weapon. This die increases to d6 at 8th level and d8 at 16th level.* When you use the Attack action with an unarmed or fist weapon attack on your turn, you can make one unarmed strike as a bonus action.SUCKER PUNCHAt 7th level, you learn how to place your unarmed attacks for the maximum impact. Once on each of your turns when you hit a creature with an unarmed or fist weapon attack, you can cause the attack to deal an extra 1d8 damage to the target.DIRTY FIGHTINGAt 10th level, you can use your unpredictable fighting style to make viscous attacks against your foe. Whenever you hit a creature with an unarmed attack or a fist weapon, you can impose one of the following effects on the target:* It must make a Dexterity saving throw or be knocked prone.* It must make a Strength saving throw. If it fails, you can push it up to 15 feet away from you.* It must make a Constitution saving throw or be stunned until the end of your next turn.The saving throw DC is calculated as follows: 8 + your proficiency bonus + your Strength or Dexterity modifier (your choice).COUNTER-PUNCHAt 15th level, when you take damage from a creature that is within 5 feet of you, you can use your reaction to make an unarmed or fist weapon attack against that creature.OPPORTUNISTAt 18th level, you can exploit a creature's momentary distraction when it is hit by an attack. Whenever a creature within 5 feet of you is hiit by an attack made by a creature other than you, you can use your reaction to make a melee attack against that creature.</blockquote>

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