Undead turning variant

[Kerrick]

We've been kicking around variants to the undead turning system since the first one came out, but no one's been really satisfied with it. So I sat down and started playing around with stuff - opposed Will save vs. cleric's level+Cha didn't work, and my friend suggested just using numbers like the old charts. I looked over the old charts, and I realized something - the numbers are based on the 1E/2E system. That's right, folks, they just ported the tables over, modified them a ltitle bit for d20, and ran with it.

Now, the old system used something similar to what I was planning - a cleric attempting to turn an undead of equal CR/level should be around DC 10. After that, it was easy - take the numbers from the new system, use the table from the old system, and voila - new turning system. I also made a rather large change - monsters are based on CR, not HD. Rather than reprint the entire table here, I'll give you a rough idea of what I'm talking about; for anyone interested, I'll attach the Excel sheet to this post.

Clr 1 vs. human skeleton (CR 2/3): 7. Vs. wolf skeleton (CR 1): DC 10. Vs. ghoul (CR 2): 13. You get the idea. A Clr 4 can automatically turn a CR >1 undead (the aforementioned human skeleton, e.g.). A Clr 6 can automatically destroy the same skeleton.

I also changed the way the turning itself works, slightly. Evil clerics function the same - command/rebuke; a "T" result for an evil cleric is rebuked, and "D" is commanded. Good clerics have turning and positive energy burst.

Turning is a cone-shaped burst of holy energy emanating out to 60 ft. The cleric rolls a turning check (1d20+Cha+modifiers); she then turns 1d6+level+Cha of undead (NOT HD, whole monsters) whose numbers she exceeded, starting with the closest ones and working outward. (For example: Laria, Clr 8 (Cha 16), and her friends are facing a dozen human zombies (CR 1/2), 3 ghouls (CR 2), and a specter (CR 7). She makes a turn check and rolls 9 - more than enough to turn all the lesser undead, but not enough for the specter. She rolls 1d6+8+3 (her Cha mod), for a total of 13. Half of the zombies are destroyed and one of the ghouls turned, but the rest (along with the specter) ignore the holy symbol and advances on her and her friends, intent on feeding on their blood and life energy.

If the cleric rolls a natural 20, she doubles the number of undead she can turn. On a natural 1, all the undead attack the cleric to the exclusion of others; in addition, she suffers a -4 penalty on her next turn check.

Positive energy burst is just that - a burst of positive energy designed to damage undead. As before, the cleric must make a turn check; if she fails to exceed an undead's DC, it remains unaffected (this is designed to prevent low-level clerics from simply blasting away at high-level undead they would normally be unable to turn). The burst has a 30-ft. radius and deals 2d6+level+Cha damage to all undead in the area of effect. The positive energy burst can also be used to damage negatively-charged objects, like evil altars. As above, a natural 20 deals double damage; a natural 1 fails and the cleric takes a -4 penalty to the next check.

Modifiers: Things like feats, spells, and hallowed/unhallowed areas can affect the turning check. Simply added the modifier to the DC, as normal. For instance, the DC for Laria to turn a wraith (CR 5) would normally be 7; in an unhallowed area, it would be 11. If Laria had, say, the Empower Turning feat, it would be 3 (I think it's +4).

Caveats: This system has not been playtested (we will be using it in our home game, but the situation hasn't come up yet). Since official CRs are notoriously inaccurate, especially, at high levels, I strongly suggest using Upper Krust's CRs for undead if you use this system - it actually balances out a lot better. Comments and criticism are welcome.

[Edit: fixed the mistakes pointed out.]

 

[Borlon]

For example:[/i] Laria, Clr 8 (Cha 16), and her friends are facing a dozen human zombies (CR 1/2), 3 ghouls (CR 2), and a specter (CR 7). She makes a turn check and rolls 11 - more than enough to turn all the lesser undead, but not enough for the specter. She rolls 2d6+8+3 (her Cha mod), for a total of 17. All of the zombies are destroyed and the ghouls turned, but the specter ignores the holy symbol and advances on her, intent on draining her energy.

Now, if Laria needs to make a DC of 10 to turn an equal CR undead, why is her roll of 11 not enough to turn the specter? It has a CR lower than hers, after all. A roll of 7 (after all modifiers) should be enough. If she rolls an 11 and adds +3 from her Charisma, she should be able to turn a CR 9 monster.

Actually, that's 1d6+level+cha mod CR 9 monsters (why does your example use 2d6 instead of 1d6? Either your example or the rule must have a typo). So at least 12 CR 9 monsters, maybe as many as 17.

This seems to underline the wonkiness of the turning mechanic. It makes an overwhelming encounter (12 CR 9 monsters facing an 8th level party) into a cakewalk if the party cleric manages to make the roll; which this one does 50% of the time. It's like resolving an encounter with a flip of a coin; tails is a TPK, heads the party wins without expending any resources.

 

[Nyeshet]

I too have long had a bit of a problem with turning, but I am not certain that this is the way to deal with it.

Look to legends and myths to see what turning is meant to emulate.

The classic example is a cleric holding a vampire at bay with a holy symbol empowered by their faith. Another example might be a priest forcing a fiend possessed person to stay back - or even to leave the body, but note that this does not involve undead.

You won't find many tales of zombies held back, as they are more modern concept (in their shuffling gait, "brain" moaning, "night of the living dead" stereotype). Same with Liches. Their equivalent existed in many lands, but they were seen not so much as undead as living with their life hidden elsewhere. Also with ghouls, for that matter, as such were seen as living monsters rather than undead, usually.

So what Turning should do is hold a creature back - possibly indefinately - or perhaps weaken, bannish, or paralyze a creature for one or more rounds if the Clr is much more powerful than the creature. So perhaps an opposed Will save, with the Clr using only its level as Clr and gaining its Cha as a bonus. Only undead and fiends are affected by turning.

If they fail by less than five points they cannot come closer than ten feet to the cleric, and if they are already closer than that they immediately pull back. If they fail by 5-9 points they are also fatigued for a number of rounds equal to the points by which they failed and the Cleric's Cha modifier - even if their creature type is not normally affected by such. If they fail by 10-14 points they are bannished to their former plane if they were summoned, and they are exhausted otherwise. If they fail by 15-19 points they fall unconscious, although they will awaken (to an exhausted state) upon taking damage. Failing by 20 or more points results in their destruction.

Of course, if you want to make it more interesting, make it a skill that only pious divine casters (not nature casters) can effectively use, cross-class for all other classes. Or you can make it a skill, but grant clerics (upon 1st or 2nd level) a class special that allows the additional features (if fail by 5+).

I admit, however, that the above mechanic is mostly made on the fly, so to speak, so I'll have to test it out a bit to see if its balanced. Oh, and I should mention that I see turning as creating a 10 ft spread effect, forcing back those undead and fiends that are nearest the cleric but having little effect on those more distant - or behind him.

I would also consider allowing turning - with its 'push back' effect - more or less at will. The more damaging effects (fatigue, exhaustion, bannishment, unconsciousness, destruction) I see as being more of a 'times' per day thing (if you are not using skills). Of course if you are using skills - and if you are using 2d10 instead of 1d20, as I do - then unlimited times per day is not that much of a problem. The cleric will almost always roll around 8-13, so anything potent enough to require more than 14 will be a problem no matter how many times it is rolled against (as the Clr will fail ~25 - 30% of the time).

One problem to consider is the fact that saves increase slower than skills (if you max the ranks in one). A way around this might be to give the turned a bonus to their resistance equal to half their HD, in addition to their turning resistance - if any. The turning resistance should be equal to their Cha mod, I think, rather than just random (as it sometimes appears to be).

So a 10 HD vampire sorcerer with Cha 20 would have 17 + Wis + roll to resist the cleric's turning skill. Considering the CR of the monster, we can expect a Clr 12 in the party facing it. Assuming max ranks, the final result is 15 + Cha + roll. So the cleric will only have a small chance of success, but this is due mostly to having both Cha and half HD added to the roll. Note, however, that if a Clr 8 were facing a 10 HD fighter skeleton (CR 8) it would not have half as difficult a problem as the prior example had, as the opposing rolls would be 11 + Cha + roll vs 7 + roll (due to -5 Cha, +5 HD, +0 Wis), making it an easy turn with almost automatic fatigue resulting in the skeleton. If the cleric had Skill Focus and were a couple levels higher it might even be able to destroy it (with that rare 1% chance of rolling a 20).

I should point out that this system would only place the negative effects (for failing by 5+) against those already within its 10 ft spread range. Those beyond it that attempted to move into it after it was created (ie: after the Clr's turn, before his next turn) would simply not be able to enter that region if they failed. This would further limit its power to some degree, but considering its use as a skill would open it up to others (even if the 5+ effects required a level or two of cleric to gain) this limiting is possibly necessary.

Note also that the system should allow one to 'turn' a person possessed / dominated / etc by an undead or fiend, with the opposed roll being against the fiend possessing/etc rather than the dominated. If the fiend fails - even by one point - the effect should end - forcing the possessing fiend / undead out if necessary. Of course, then one could turn the leaving fiend / undead to hold it off and keep it from repossessing the individual (or anyone else) or attacking.

Note also that turning - in legends - included fae amongst those affected (ie: held back), but this was due (more often than not) to the belief that fae were only a step away from being fiends. All fae were typically seen as quasi-fiend-like beings of either N or E alignment - never G. Thus their inability to enter churches, touch holy items, etc. A campaign specific variant of turning might allow this, but offhand I'm not certain how this should work.

Finally, there is the matter of evil clerics to take into consideration. If turning failed, what then? Should the undead / fiend be held still in awe, charmed, dominated (rather than pushed back, fatigued, exhausted)? What about the use of turning against other creatures (elementals, for instance, as allowed by some domains) or the use of domains that affect turning (such as the Sun and Glory domains)?

I'll have to test it out a bit before I'm certain of the balance/etc of the above setup.

 

[Kerrick]

Now, if Laria needs to make a DC of 10 to turn an equal CR undead, why is her roll of 11 not enough to turn the specter? It has a CR lower than hers, after all. A roll of 7 (after all modifiers) should be enough. If she rolls an 11 and adds +3 from her Charisma, she should be able to turn a CR 9 monster.

Oops. I think I was looking at the wrong column when I wrote that.

Actually, that's 1d6+level+cha mod CR 9 monsters (why does your example use 2d6 instead of 1d6? Either your example or the rule must have a typo). So at least 12 CR 9 monsters, maybe as many as 17.

No, I changed the rule after I wrote the example (I was pretty much writing this on the fly, from half-formed notes in my head). It should be 1d6.

This seems to underline the wonkiness of the turning mechanic. It makes an overwhelming encounter (12 CR 9 monsters facing an 8th level party) into a cakewalk if the party cleric manages to make the roll; which this one does 50% of the time.

You're right. I looked at the table in the 1E DMG, and I saw that (generally) a cleric can turn an undead of equal level on a 13 (we'll assume the zombie listed is CR 1, and the skeleton CR 1/2, since the skeleton is first). If you go with DC 13, you can turn 3 CRs higher, maybe 4 if you're really good or have heavy benefits on your side. Sounds about right, eh?

The question is: how much higher than a target undead should a cleric be to automatically turn/destroy it (automatic, in this case, meaning without a roll)?

Your comment about the number of undead turned made me think... maybe it is a bit much. I still don't like using HD of undead simply because of the stupidity of the example in the PHB (Jozan can turn the two zombies, but the remaining 3 HD of turning aren't enough to turn the wight - WTF is that?). So, 1d6+Cha undead? Sounds reasonable, especially if you can double it on a natural 20, or increase it with feats and/or abilities. You might even rule that a hallowed area allows clerics to turn x more undead (1d4, 1d6, or +1/3 caster levels of the person who placed the spell), and an unhallowed area (sink of evil) does the reverse (if the cleric successfully makes an undead's DC to turn it, but somehow got a 0 on the roll, the unholy energy of the place is enough to make it stand its ground. Or somesuch thing. Yeah, this isn't much better than the example I used, but at least it's an all or nothing thing.).

So what Turning should do is hold a creature back - possibly indefinately - or perhaps weaken, bannish, or paralyze a creature for one or more rounds if the Clr is much more powerful than the creature. So perhaps an opposed Will save, with the Clr using only its level as Clr and gaining its Cha as a bonus. Only undead and fiends are affected by turning.

Straight opposed Will saves. It could work. The only problem I can see with this is that there's no limiting factor - if a Clr 1 makes a turn check against a Wiz 24 lich and the lich rolls a natural 1, he's turned. Logic insists that this shouldn't happen, and yet by the rules, it could. Granted, the vast majority of players (as demonstrated by the poll in GD) use common sense, but some don't - I'd like to make a system that works on all levels.

Of course, if you want to make it more interesting, make it a skill that only pious divine casters (not nature casters) can effectively use, cross-class for all other classes. Or you can make it a skill, but grant clerics (upon 1st or 2nd level) a class special that allows the additional features (if fail by 5+).

You'd have to give them extra skill points to dump into this skill - they don't get that many to begin with.

I admit, however, that the above mechanic is mostly made on the fly, so to speak, so I'll have to test it out a bit to see if its balanced. Oh, and I should mention that I see turning as creating a 10 ft spread effect, forcing back those undead and fiends that are nearest the cleric but having little effect on those more distant - or behind him.

Yeah, I didn't quite agree with 60 feet like the PHB says. 60 feet, if you've got a lot of undead around you, is wasted space. If the only undead are that far away, it just defies logic that a cleric would be able to turn them. And if they're behind him, where he can't see them it's even more absurd to think that he would be able to turn them. They should have made it line of sight, not line of effect - you can't target an invisible creature with a spell unless you can see it; the same should be true for turning.

One problem to consider is the fact that saves increase slower than skills (if you max the ranks in one). A way around this might be to give the turned a bonus to their resistance equal to half their HD, in addition to their turning resistance - if any. The turning resistance should be equal to their Cha mod, I think, rather than just random (as it sometimes appears to be).

I actually did that - grant undead TR based on HD; I did 1/3, though. I wish I had saved that worksheet; this was when I was doing opposed Will save vs. 1d20+Clr level+Cha, and when I discovered that it wouldn't work, I scrapped the whole thing. Although I don't fancy the skill idea, granting TR might work for my system. BTW, if you look closely, most of the undead with TR are low-level; I think they gave those creatures TR so they could last a little bit longer against clerics, instead of being a cakewalk.

Note also that the system should allow one to 'turn' a person possessed / dominated / etc by an undead or fiend, with the opposed roll being against the fiend possessing/etc rather than the dominated. If the fiend fails - even by one point - the effect should end - forcing the possessing fiend / undead out if necessary. Of course, then one could turn the leaving fiend / undead to hold it off and keep it from repossessing the individual (or anyone else) or attacking.

I hadn't even thought of that. We do have a PrC in Crimson Contracts (which I co-wrote) called the Hunter of the Damned. Basically, it's a paladin who hunts down possessing entities and destroys them - he can force them out of their hosts, strike at them while still possessing the host (without harming said host), etc. I really like the idea of being able to turn possessed entities. I think they'd get hefty bonuses to the roll, since they're clothed in living flesh, but it should still be possible by higher level clerics. And with this rule, I think a "D" result would mean that the entity is forced out of the body, not destroyed (it has to be in its natural form to be destroyed like that), so a powerful cleric could force a possessing entity out with just his holy symbol and his faith.

What about the use of turning against other creatures (elementals, for instance, as allowed by some domains) or the use of domains that affect turning (such as the Sun and Glory domains)?

It should work the same against all creatures - opposed Will save, or whatever. I don't know what the Glory domain does, but Sun seems to be pretty simple - once per day, turned creatures are destroyed.