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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Nyeshet" data-source="post: 2593209" data-attributes="member: 18363">I too have long had a bit of a problem with turning, but I am not certain that this is the way to deal with it. Look to legends and myths to see what turning is meant to emulate. The classic example is a cleric holding a vampire at bay with a holy symbol empowered by their faith. Another example might be a priest forcing a fiend possessed person to stay back - or even to leave the body, but note that this does not involve undead. You won't find many tales of zombies held back, as they are more modern concept (in their shuffling gait, "brain" moaning, "night of the living dead" stereotype). Same with Liches. Their equivalent existed in many lands, but they were seen not so much as undead as living with their life hidden elsewhere. Also with ghouls, for that matter, as such were seen as living monsters rather than undead, usually. So what Turning should do is hold a creature back - possibly indefinately - or perhaps weaken, bannish, or paralyze a creature for one or more rounds if the Clr is much more powerful than the creature. So perhaps an opposed Will save, with the Clr using only its level as Clr and gaining its Cha as a bonus. Only undead and fiends are affected by turning. If they fail by less than five points they cannot come closer than ten feet to the cleric, and if they are already closer than that they immediately pull back. If they fail by 5-9 points they are also fatigued for a number of rounds equal to the points by which they failed and the Cleric's Cha modifier - even if their creature type is not normally affected by such. If they fail by 10-14 points they are bannished to their former plane if they were summoned, and they are exhausted otherwise. If they fail by 15-19 points they fall unconscious, although they will awaken (to an exhausted state) upon taking damage. Failing by 20 or more points results in their destruction. Of course, if you want to make it more interesting, make it a skill that only pious divine casters (not nature casters) can effectively use, cross-class for all other classes. Or you can make it a skill, but grant clerics (upon 1st or 2nd level) a class special that allows the additional features (if fail by 5+). I admit, however, that the above mechanic is mostly made on the fly, so to speak, so I'll have to test it out a bit to see if its balanced. Oh, and I should mention that I see turning as creating a 10 ft spread effect, forcing back those undead and fiends that are nearest the cleric but having little effect on those more distant - or behind him. I would also consider allowing turning - with its 'push back' effect - more or less at will. The more damaging effects (fatigue, exhaustion, bannishment, unconsciousness, destruction) I see as being more of a 'times' per day thing (if you are not using skills). Of course if you are using skills - and if you are using 2d10 instead of 1d20, as I do - then unlimited times per day is not that much of a problem. The cleric will almost always roll around 8-13, so anything potent enough to require more than 14 will be a problem no matter how many times it is rolled against (as the Clr will fail ~25 - 30% of the time). One problem to consider is the fact that saves increase slower than skills (if you max the ranks in one). A way around this might be to give the turned a bonus to their resistance equal to half their HD, in addition to their turning resistance - if any. The turning resistance should be equal to their Cha mod, I think, rather than just random (as it sometimes appears to be). So a 10 HD vampire sorcerer with Cha 20 would have 17 + Wis + roll to resist the cleric's turning skill. Considering the CR of the monster, we can expect a Clr 12 in the party facing it. Assuming max ranks, the final result is 15 + Cha + roll. So the cleric will only have a small chance of success, but this is due mostly to having both Cha and half HD added to the roll. Note, however, that if a Clr 8 were facing a 10 HD fighter skeleton (CR 8) it would not have half as difficult a problem as the prior example had, as the opposing rolls would be 11 + Cha + roll vs 7 + roll (due to -5 Cha, +5 HD, +0 Wis), making it an easy turn with almost automatic fatigue resulting in the skeleton. If the cleric had Skill Focus and were a couple levels higher it might even be able to destroy it (with that rare 1% chance of rolling a 20). I should point out that this system would only place the negative effects (for failing by 5+) against those already within its 10 ft spread range. Those beyond it that attempted to move into it after it was created (ie: after the Clr's turn, before his next turn) would simply not be able to enter that region if they failed. This would further limit its power to some degree, but considering its use as a skill would open it up to others (even if the 5+ effects required a level or two of cleric to gain) this limiting is possibly necessary. Note also that the system should allow one to 'turn' a person possessed / dominated / etc by an undead or fiend, with the opposed roll being against the fiend possessing/etc rather than the dominated. If the fiend fails - even by one point - the effect should end - forcing the possessing fiend / undead out if necessary. Of course, then one could turn the leaving fiend / undead to hold it off and keep it from repossessing the individual (or anyone else) or attacking. Note also that turning - in legends - included fae amongst those affected (ie: held back), but this was due (more often than not) to the belief that fae were only a step away from being fiends. All fae were typically seen as quasi-fiend-like beings of either N or E alignment - never G. Thus their inability to enter churches, touch holy items, etc. A campaign specific variant of turning might allow this, but offhand I'm not certain how this should work. Finally, there is the matter of evil clerics to take into consideration. If turning failed, what then? Should the undead / fiend be held still in awe, charmed, dominated (rather than pushed back, fatigued, exhausted)? What about the use of turning against other creatures (elementals, for instance, as allowed by some domains) or the use of domains that affect turning (such as the Sun and Glory domains)?I'll have to test it out a bit before I'm certain of the balance/etc of the above setup.</blockquote>

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