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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mercule" data-source="post: 2085709" data-attributes="member: 5100">Oh, quite.  My objection comes from some DMs and designers using handwaving to make things work.  If you can give me a rough idea of how a PC might go about accomplishing the same thing, I've got no problem at all. I've no knowledge whatsoever of Undermountain (or much about FR), and never intended to imply such.  A lot of my ire comes from Dragon Mountain where there were a lot of restrictions that amounted to, "Just because".  The thing that convinced me the alterations there went beyond what the dragon could have reasonably done, was when I was told the rule (2E) that allowed fighters to take a bunch of attacks against creatures with less than 1HD was suspended.  Yeah, "We're gonna show you that kobolds are scary, but we're changing the rules to do so."  That'll show us. Anyway, like I said, my test (with a broad brush and barring divinities of some stripe) for where that line is crossed is whether a PC could have accomplished the same thing with some level of effort.  If not, or if you change basic rules (number of attacks), then it isn't "upping the ante", it's cheating.</blockquote>