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Message: <blockquote data-quote="The_Warlock" data-source="post: 2091601" data-attributes="member: 21215">Excellent response Mr. Morrow. I guess part of the problem here, and your respnse clarifies it for me, is that in many ways I don't disagree with you. As I said "as long as there are methods to deal with it". I admit, that phrase is broad and was not specific enough under the circumstances, but I wholeheartedly agree with you that there would, could, and should be places that are not always wholly barred/warded, but I would work from the concept of "The dungeon is thus warded" as my blanket statement, and then, having that baseline, cut away at the blanket in certain areas, thus defining such areas as how they are different from the baseline warding, rather than start with bare dungeon and constantly rehash and re-list for myself the tally of defenses. However, as Henry, and I (I hope) pointed out, especially in this circumstance, Undermountain is more than a lair, its a playground, laboratory, and amusement park, and in the setting, its defenses are not only conceivable, but a basic necessity that would have been worked into it from the beginning to support its unique, and twisted, ecosystem by someone capable of doing it with enough time and resources to do it almost completely. And in the case of a place like Undermountain, and its purpose, almost everywhere matters.From tactically minded individuals or groups that don't have a milennia and epic magics (which while I don't overly like the 3E epic magic system, can account for staggering expansions in area of effect, city size and bigger) at their disposal, I heartily agree with your estimate that the most important areas would be truly protected, rather than every last men's room. And have even designed places in such fashion. But when it's a purported 14 level dungeon with 9 sub-levels, an attached sewer, and attached tomb dungeon, and a town of underdark slavers, I'd rather know the baseline rules for the place that are generally all encompassing, and then read about the individual areas that differ from that baseline. I guess that also points to a problem in communication overall in this thread as a whole - I was definitely speaking of Undermountain, and similar events, locales, and NPCs. I think some of the discussion is assuming that all foes, dungeons, etc in a given GMs world or setting thus inherently are being constructed the same. I believe that all competent NPCs with access to the resources would do their best to protect themselves. That does not mean I would build an entire campaign where every dungeon, every NPC lair, and every challenge barred every translocation, divination, and ability that my players had at their disposal. That would be boring and silly. But I will apply protections appropriate to the antagonists - if that happens to be a massive teleporation block and there is good reason, AND capability, AND resources, AND time - then so be it. If it doesn't then I won't, if you take my meaning? Also, "there is a teleport block", that's a high level ability that is being denied the party - maybe it will make them use other high level abilities (or gasp! role-playing) they have but rarely or never use to find ways around the teleport block. Isn't that overcoming the challenge?In the end, I agree with you in principle, but not in method, if you will. You say making sweeping declarations is heavy handed and flavorless, that there should be nuances and connectivity to the rules. I say making sweeping declarations is pragmatic and time saving, I am basing it off the rules as written, within the reasonable limitations that the specific nemesis/locale/group has available, and then peel away the layers of the blanket in certain areas to achieve the unique methods, flavor and keys for the players to find and manipulate to their advantage. In the end, I love Undermountain for what it is, always the same; everchanging; full of wonderful, weird, schizoid encounters; with established and durable factions and personalities; and where high level play is mandatory, where amazing abilities have to be used every day; but where you have to walk in the front door like every other schlub.</blockquote>

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