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Message: <blockquote data-quote="John Morrow" data-source="post: 2095227" data-attributes="member: 27012">With respect to the Undermountain being a single location where this is true, I can understand that and think it's fine.  As I said, a single large dungeon built by halflings where all of the ceilings are 4 ft. high could be interesting, too.  A single dungeon created by a powerful fighter that doesn't allow spellcasting or magic items could be interesting, too.  My main concern is that a GM look at Undermountain and say, "Hey, that really simplifies my life.  All of my dungeons should be teleport-free zones."I also understand your need to make your life simple.  3E can be incredibly time-consuming to do everything "by the book".  But I still don't think it necessarily takes all that much longer to red-line out the areas of a dungeon where a party can't teleport than it does to red-line out the areas of a dungeon where they can.  The main difference seems to be one of control.  It's a matter of whether you want to look at things in terms of "All that is not forbidden is allowed." or "All that is not allowed is forbidden."  They can have a very different flavor and, as a player, I can feel that difference in terms of control.  The latter, to me, can send a message that the GM doesn't want the players to do anything clever or surprising that the GM hasn't planned for.  Of course how the GM does this and how often matters a great deal.Well, there is also the issue of "how often is too often".  At some point between "once" and "every time" lies a point at which the players get the distinct impression that the GM just doesn't want them using teleportation and scrying to spoil their adventures.  Where that line is will vary from group to group, with some groups getting annoyed by it being used once and other groups never getting sick of it.  Ultimately, do whatever works for your group but keep an eye out for signs that your players don't like it.Sure.  But there are plenty of people out there who always assume that the time and resources are available if the good reason and capability exist.  A lot of what adds texture and flavor to the real world is the trade off between quality, time, and money (as the classic caption under those words says, "Pick Two," meaning that one will have to be sacrificed to get the other two because).  Yes, a fantasy setting can always have powerful figures that do have all three at their disposal and that's fine if it fits, but I really do think that the results of a trade-off are usually more interesting than perfection.  And, yes, it can be time consuming to consider that trade-off when designing a dungeon but the basic feel of a trade-off can be created by making a dungeon less-than-optimal and by restricting really expensive stuff to critical areas.Yes.  And as I've said, once or twice it can be interesting.  But like any challenge that's based on denying the characters the use of some of their abilities, it can get old if overused.  So what I guess I'm saying here is that it's OK to block teleportation and srying from some of your dungeons but don't overuse it such that scrying and teleportation are never really useful.Of course I think another factor may very well be the tone and power-level of the setting.  An Undermountain makes a lot more sense in the high-magic Forgotten Realms than it would in a lower magic or lower level setting.  If your setting is filled with people who can scry and teleport, protection will logically be more common than in a setting where you can count the number of crystal balls and characters over 10th level on one hand.  So in that regard, I can see how blanket bans may make more sense in a setting where Epic level characters were or are common.  They make less sense in lower-powered settings.As I said earlier, I appreciate your concern over saving time and as I said above, I'm not sure that red-lining out the limited areas where one can't teleport is any more time consuming than red-lining out the limited areas where one.  Either approach can work but I think the feel can be very different.  See above about making "forbidden" or "allowed" the default assumption.And as a location within the magic-rich and powerful Forgotten Realms, it makes sense.  I'm not saying that the Undermountain needs to change nor is it horrible.  My main concern is that GMs simply blindly emulate it on the grounds that it's mighty convenient to now allow the players to scry or teleport.  And since many GMs do find scrying and teleportation to be mighty inconvenient, I think that's a legitimate concern.  Like I've said, once or twice is interesting.  Like many things in role-playing, the problem lies in repetition and overuse (which is, of course, subjective).FYI, please note that some of this is written as generic advice for other people who may be reading it.  I suspect that you already know a lot of what I'm saying here.</blockquote>

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