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<blockquote data-quote="Starfox" data-source="post: 4944479" data-attributes="member: 2303">Taking old testament citations (at least pre Babylonian exile) as examples of good is to me fundamentally flawed; the old testament does not claim to be good. It is a historical account of events and actions, governed by rules rather than ethos. In fact, I believe the concept of &quot;universal good&quot; as we see it today is alien to those texts. They are about patriots looking for the good of the people, not a universal human good. Samson is not punished for being evil, but for breaking the rules. In many ways, the OT is best represented by the ODD Lawful &lt;-&gt; Chaotic alignment scale.I this entire development of the idea of an abstract good very fascinating, tough outside the scope of these forums. In many ways, David is the most interesting character in the OT - he gets away with breaking rules and commands because he is so good and charismatic, perhaps the first genuinely sympathetic figure in the Bible, even tough he still does some bad things. I recommend David Miles &quot;God, a Biography&quot; for others interested in this angle, even if I do not in all ways agree with him.While this was never my interpretation of the 1ed alignment system, it is a very interesting interpretation - in a literary sense. The doom that constantly hangs over Elric, for example, meshes very well with this system. And I disagree that this notion is un-western - if you include things like the Celtic and Germanic sagas in &quot;Western&quot;. It is definitely un-existentialist and alien to some forms of modern religion, but not all.The bottom line is that the idea of a universal good determined by your actions is a pretty recent one, that did not really get widespread acceptance until Hellenistic times (maybe 300 BC) and did not reach Northern Europe until the advent of Christianity. &quot;Your cattle shall die; your kindred shall die; you yourself shall die; one thing I know which never dies: the judgment on each one dead.&quot; - Havamal(Yes, I know this quote contradicts rather than supports what I say above; I just think its poetic.)</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Starfox, post: 4944479, member: 2303"] Taking old testament citations (at least pre Babylonian exile) as examples of good is to me fundamentally flawed; the old testament does not claim to be good. It is a historical account of events and actions, governed by rules rather than ethos. In fact, I believe the concept of "universal good" as we see it today is alien to those texts. They are about patriots looking for the good of the people, not a universal human good. Samson is not punished for being evil, but for breaking the rules. In many ways, the OT is best represented by the ODD Lawful <-> Chaotic alignment scale. I this entire development of the idea of an abstract good very fascinating, tough outside the scope of these forums. In many ways, David is the most interesting character in the OT - he gets away with breaking rules and commands because he is so good and charismatic, perhaps the first genuinely sympathetic figure in the Bible, even tough he still does some bad things. I recommend David Miles "God, a Biography" for others interested in this angle, even if I do not in all ways agree with him. While this was never my interpretation of the 1ed alignment system, it is a very interesting interpretation - in a literary sense. The doom that constantly hangs over Elric, for example, meshes very well with this system. And I disagree that this notion is un-western - if you include things like the Celtic and Germanic sagas in "Western". It is definitely un-existentialist and alien to some forms of modern religion, but not all. The bottom line is that the idea of a universal good determined by your actions is a pretty recent one, that did not really get widespread acceptance until Hellenistic times (maybe 300 BC) and did not reach Northern Europe until the advent of Christianity. "Your cattle shall die; your kindred shall die; you yourself shall die; one thing I know which never dies: the judgment on each one dead." - Havamal (Yes, I know this quote contradicts rather than supports what I say above; I just think its poetic.) [/QUOTE]

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