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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Infiniti2000" data-source="post: 3123310" data-attributes="member: 31734">Not a straw man at all.  In fact, Penguins do not have Fly speed at all.  They have "Speed 10ft, Swim 40ft".  Kingfishers, if statted up, probably would also have a swim speed, or you could just create some rules for momentum build-up when diving.I repeat, it's not a straw man.  It's just a good analogy to which you have no defense.  You are selectively choose creatures that you think fly underwater while ignoring the huge number that have a Fly speed and which you know cannot 'fly' underwater.  You cannot just dismiss it.  This example also has a real impact.  A raven could easily be a wizard's familiar.  Do you really advocate the idea that the raven can swim at 20ft with poor maneuverability (no chance of failure) while the wizard possibly flounders (e.g. low strength and poor swim)?Have you ever seen a bird caught in the rapids?  Neither have I, but I'm positive that the bird's thought (assuming they think) is not gonna be "I better dive underwater where I have a much better chance to fly." Surely, you jest?  More relevant?  Don't use Superman as any kind of supportive argument. I have no idea what you mean by neutral buoyancy.  How do the rules in the MotP allow for that?The plane of water allows a person to choose which way is up or down.  Presumably they do this on their turn as some sort of action.  Regardless, that person can change it whenever they want.  There are no other rules mentioned that I would think apply.Easily done.  I'm letting you do it.  The fact that you are not adopting the rules on Air Movement from the elemental plane of air means that you should not also adopt the rules on Water Movement from the elemental plane of water.  If you decide on one, but not the other then you are being inconsistent and have no basis for your choice.You need to use both or neither to be consistent.  Don't you agree?</blockquote>

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