Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
The
VOIDRUNNER'S CODEX
is coming! Explore new worlds, fight oppressive empires, fend off fearsome aliens, and wield deadly psionics with this comprehensive boxed set expansion for 5E and A5E!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Unearthed Arcana: Gothic Lineages & New Race/Culture Distinction
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8197232" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>As I shown, and what I think [USER=6915329]@Faolyn[/USER] is getting at, is that Extraordinary in the fiction does not equal extraordinary in the mechanics. </p><p></p><p>To re-give a strength example from back when people kept bringing up elephants and mice, a Spider has a strength score of 2. They have a -4 on every check involving their strength, and they are basically worthless in terms of strength based feats... </p><p></p><p>They can also drag 60 lbs, meaning they can carry off the average 8 year old child with no effort whatsoever. </p><p></p><p>There is a disconnect between the representations. Lifting 450 lbs is incredibly impressive. Getting a +2 on your attack roll is pretty crap.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>We want the level 1 average. That isn't so terrible, is it?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Cool. Why did you skip all of the important parts of that post to jump down to the least important part?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So you want to change the definitions. </p><p></p><p>An Easy task shouldn't be an actual easy task. It should be an "easy task to accomplish while under intense pressure that may cause you to fail half the time". How then should we define a hard task? I mean, a hard task is already difficult, but now it has to be particular difficult while under duress? </p><p></p><p>And look at the examples in the DMG on page 237. Under strength we have "Use a spike to wedge a door shut" Is that supposed to be difficult? Are we supposed to assume you are doing it quickly under duress, or is this meant to be an example for doing so in general? Intelligence has "recall a bit of lore" is that on a time limit? How do we add stress that would make recalling it more difficult, do we only roll intelligence checks while you are menaced by an enemy? Constitution says "Win a Drinking Contest" So are we to assume this is a contest you are in while being attacked? How do you add stress to a contest to make it require a roll? </p><p></p><p>I mean sure, it sounds nice to say that we should only call for rolls when you might fail, but then... what determines if you might fail? Does a Goliath with 10 strength automatically succeed on busting down that wooden door because he weighs 400 lbs and is big, but the 18 strength gnome has to roll because he is small? Do we say that the Dwarf automatically wins the drinking contest, without even needing to roll, while if they were an elf with 18 con they would need to roll for that victory?</p><p></p><p>I don't think it is nearly as cut and dry as you want your post to make it seem. This is an issue with a lot of complicated moving parts that impacts the entire skill system and how we utilize it. </p><p></p><p>Or... </p><p></p><p>We can let a 1st level character have their 16 in their prime score.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Accuse me of rank elitism all you want. I let a player make that choice without saying anything once. They hated the entire game because of how badly their character performed, always falling behind the expected curve for their characters entire span in my campaign. </p><p></p><p>Should I just sit by quietly and let it happen again? I tore me up inside to hear him come to truly despise his own character, because it felt like all he did was waste resources in combat while the more optimized characters tore encounters apart. </p><p></p><p>Oh, and by "more optimized" I mean a elven rogue archer, a dual-wielding Orc Blood Hunter, and a Goliath Zealot Barbian, without GWM. They didn't even have a truly high tier build at the table. Those guys were, fairly average in terms of combat capability. And he felt worthless. </p><p></p><p>Maybe that +1 wouldn't have made a difference. Maybe it was all in just a year's worth of bad luck and poor die rolls. But since it so closely mirrored my own experience, where I felt the same frustrations with a cleric, who also started with a 15 as their highest stat, I'm fairly certain in saying it wasn't just a fluke. It wasn't just me. </p><p></p><p>16 is the average expected score for a 1st level character in their prime stat. You can call that whatever name you want to call it, elitism, powergaming, min-maxing, but I notice something interesting. </p><p></p><p>No one jumped in to call a Gnome Wizard min-maxing. No one has jumped in to say a Wood Elf Ranger is elitist. No one has cried that playing a Tiefling Warlock being an optimizer. Or a Half-Orc Barbarian. </p><p></p><p>We are only elitist min-maxing optimizers when we want to play a halfling wizard with a 16. A Wood Elf Warlock, with a 16. A Tiefling Barbarian with a 16. Then we are elitist. Then we are min-maxxing, because can't we just accept that we can't be as good as someone born to the role can be?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 8197232, member: 6801228"] As I shown, and what I think [USER=6915329]@Faolyn[/USER] is getting at, is that Extraordinary in the fiction does not equal extraordinary in the mechanics. To re-give a strength example from back when people kept bringing up elephants and mice, a Spider has a strength score of 2. They have a -4 on every check involving their strength, and they are basically worthless in terms of strength based feats... They can also drag 60 lbs, meaning they can carry off the average 8 year old child with no effort whatsoever. There is a disconnect between the representations. Lifting 450 lbs is incredibly impressive. Getting a +2 on your attack roll is pretty crap. We want the level 1 average. That isn't so terrible, is it? Cool. Why did you skip all of the important parts of that post to jump down to the least important part? So you want to change the definitions. An Easy task shouldn't be an actual easy task. It should be an "easy task to accomplish while under intense pressure that may cause you to fail half the time". How then should we define a hard task? I mean, a hard task is already difficult, but now it has to be particular difficult while under duress? And look at the examples in the DMG on page 237. Under strength we have "Use a spike to wedge a door shut" Is that supposed to be difficult? Are we supposed to assume you are doing it quickly under duress, or is this meant to be an example for doing so in general? Intelligence has "recall a bit of lore" is that on a time limit? How do we add stress that would make recalling it more difficult, do we only roll intelligence checks while you are menaced by an enemy? Constitution says "Win a Drinking Contest" So are we to assume this is a contest you are in while being attacked? How do you add stress to a contest to make it require a roll? I mean sure, it sounds nice to say that we should only call for rolls when you might fail, but then... what determines if you might fail? Does a Goliath with 10 strength automatically succeed on busting down that wooden door because he weighs 400 lbs and is big, but the 18 strength gnome has to roll because he is small? Do we say that the Dwarf automatically wins the drinking contest, without even needing to roll, while if they were an elf with 18 con they would need to roll for that victory? I don't think it is nearly as cut and dry as you want your post to make it seem. This is an issue with a lot of complicated moving parts that impacts the entire skill system and how we utilize it. Or... We can let a 1st level character have their 16 in their prime score. Accuse me of rank elitism all you want. I let a player make that choice without saying anything once. They hated the entire game because of how badly their character performed, always falling behind the expected curve for their characters entire span in my campaign. Should I just sit by quietly and let it happen again? I tore me up inside to hear him come to truly despise his own character, because it felt like all he did was waste resources in combat while the more optimized characters tore encounters apart. Oh, and by "more optimized" I mean a elven rogue archer, a dual-wielding Orc Blood Hunter, and a Goliath Zealot Barbian, without GWM. They didn't even have a truly high tier build at the table. Those guys were, fairly average in terms of combat capability. And he felt worthless. Maybe that +1 wouldn't have made a difference. Maybe it was all in just a year's worth of bad luck and poor die rolls. But since it so closely mirrored my own experience, where I felt the same frustrations with a cleric, who also started with a 15 as their highest stat, I'm fairly certain in saying it wasn't just a fluke. It wasn't just me. 16 is the average expected score for a 1st level character in their prime stat. You can call that whatever name you want to call it, elitism, powergaming, min-maxing, but I notice something interesting. No one jumped in to call a Gnome Wizard min-maxing. No one has jumped in to say a Wood Elf Ranger is elitist. No one has cried that playing a Tiefling Warlock being an optimizer. Or a Half-Orc Barbarian. We are only elitist min-maxing optimizers when we want to play a halfling wizard with a 16. A Wood Elf Warlock, with a 16. A Tiefling Barbarian with a 16. Then we are elitist. Then we are min-maxxing, because can't we just accept that we can't be as good as someone born to the role can be? [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Unearthed Arcana: Gothic Lineages & New Race/Culture Distinction
Top