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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8207552" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>I can't speak for exactly what Faolyn is thinking, but control seems to be a very strong part of the mind set going into this. </p><p></p><p>After all, it isn't good enough that you can still choose to put a +2 dex on an Elf, you have to have no choice except to have a +2 dex on an elf. Whether that is seen as WoTC controlling us, or the player/DM controlling other player's actions is a bit academic, but it seems that the very idea of the option existing is a problem. </p><p></p><p>And this gets taken even weirder. People have both argued that a Halfling with a strength of 16 or higher is a farce, a joke, and utter nonsense, while also arguing that you are perfectly allowed to roll your stats and put them wherever you want. One person, I believe it was Luiscarlos, but I could be misremembering and I'm not going to go back and look, even went so far as to say that even if you roll, putting above a 15 into strength for a halfling goes against "the spirit of the game" </p><p></p><p>Now, you might think that while that is their opinions, it really doesn't matter what they think. People are still free to do what they want, but then we have to look at what they accuse us of. </p><p></p><p>Power gaming. Min maxxing. Caring more about mechanical power than story. </p><p></p><p>I have legitimately seen, not in this argument specifically, people claim that they cannot have a flawed character unless one of their stats is below a 10, and that anyone who wants higher stats in their prime ability (which is the basic competency curve the game expects) wants to be a perfect ubermensch with no flaws and skip through all of the game with no challenges. How the narrative pf stats is presented is their weapon.</p><p></p><p>They can't control what we do, but they try to control the narrative. They try to make the entire conversation only about the mechanical power of having a 16 in your prime stat, without having to pick the "proper" race. Because, make no mistake, not a single person on this debate has ever claiming that a halfling Rogue with a 16 dex is powergaming. It is only a dwarf rogue with 16 dex, or a tiefling rogue with a 16 dex that is powergaming. If I am playing a dwarf, I need to play either a character with a 16 str or Wis and 16 con, tieflings should only have 16 Cha and 16 Int. </p><p></p><p>And it really is all about the 16 in the prime stat for them, because even while Faolyn says "what if I want to have a 16 in a non-prime stat" it doesn't matter. We can't be actually caring about concept, because then the other side couldn't try and paint us as power gamers trying to ruin all the fun of the game by removing diversity and making everything a homogeneous blob. It must be because we are slefish and greedy and care only about ourselves and desire to have things handed to us for free.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 8207552, member: 6801228"] I can't speak for exactly what Faolyn is thinking, but control seems to be a very strong part of the mind set going into this. After all, it isn't good enough that you can still choose to put a +2 dex on an Elf, you have to have no choice except to have a +2 dex on an elf. Whether that is seen as WoTC controlling us, or the player/DM controlling other player's actions is a bit academic, but it seems that the very idea of the option existing is a problem. And this gets taken even weirder. People have both argued that a Halfling with a strength of 16 or higher is a farce, a joke, and utter nonsense, while also arguing that you are perfectly allowed to roll your stats and put them wherever you want. One person, I believe it was Luiscarlos, but I could be misremembering and I'm not going to go back and look, even went so far as to say that even if you roll, putting above a 15 into strength for a halfling goes against "the spirit of the game" Now, you might think that while that is their opinions, it really doesn't matter what they think. People are still free to do what they want, but then we have to look at what they accuse us of. Power gaming. Min maxxing. Caring more about mechanical power than story. I have legitimately seen, not in this argument specifically, people claim that they cannot have a flawed character unless one of their stats is below a 10, and that anyone who wants higher stats in their prime ability (which is the basic competency curve the game expects) wants to be a perfect ubermensch with no flaws and skip through all of the game with no challenges. How the narrative pf stats is presented is their weapon. They can't control what we do, but they try to control the narrative. They try to make the entire conversation only about the mechanical power of having a 16 in your prime stat, without having to pick the "proper" race. Because, make no mistake, not a single person on this debate has ever claiming that a halfling Rogue with a 16 dex is powergaming. It is only a dwarf rogue with 16 dex, or a tiefling rogue with a 16 dex that is powergaming. If I am playing a dwarf, I need to play either a character with a 16 str or Wis and 16 con, tieflings should only have 16 Cha and 16 Int. And it really is all about the 16 in the prime stat for them, because even while Faolyn says "what if I want to have a 16 in a non-prime stat" it doesn't matter. We can't be actually caring about concept, because then the other side couldn't try and paint us as power gamers trying to ruin all the fun of the game by removing diversity and making everything a homogeneous blob. It must be because we are slefish and greedy and care only about ourselves and desire to have things handed to us for free. [/QUOTE]
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