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<blockquote data-quote="Sunseeker" data-source="post: 7701563">Woah now.&nbsp; I never even used the word optimization and it wasn't what I was talking about either.&nbsp; Moreover &quot;rules mastery&quot; is a bit of a loaded term here.&nbsp; You want people to know the rules of the game right?&nbsp; To know when they apply, when they don't, and what sort of exception exist right?&nbsp; By &quot;get better&quot; all I meant was require rules clarifications less often, understand how game aspects work and generally become a better player.&nbsp; Not an optimizer, not a rules lawyer, but someone who is better at the game and doesn't need to ask which die they need to roll to make an attack.And I already clarified that I wasn't talking about &quot;new&quot; players who just don't know the ropes yet.&nbsp; Maybe my overly aggressive writing made people miss that, but I'm not talking about new players.&nbsp; I'm talking about players who actively don't show an interest in learning how the game works and usually they insist that their lack of knowledge be catered to by constant interruptions and misapplications of the rules.&nbsp; I don't know how any of you can argue that some people &quot;don't want to get better&quot; at D&amp;D.&nbsp; Sure, you may not want to become optimizers, but that's not objectively better.&nbsp; Maybe you get better at staying in character.&nbsp; Maybe you get better at using the tools of the game to create the right theme for your character, maybe you just ask fewer rules questions because you know how X, Y or Z works.&nbsp; But I mean, I dunno I guess if you guys are telling me there are some people who want to play D&amp;D, but have no interest in expanding their understanding of how the game works, well I just don't know what to tell you.&nbsp; To me that sounds like wanting to drive but not wanting to learn the rules of the road and reminds me of some particular players I refuse to play with.So hey maybe what I said came out wrong, maybe I'm misunderstanding you guys, I'm just telling you what I'm hearing.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Sunseeker, post: 7701563"] Woah now. I never even [I]used[/I] the word optimization and it wasn't what I was talking about either. Moreover "rules mastery" is a bit of a loaded term here. You want people to know the rules of the game right? To know when they apply, when they don't, and what sort of exception exist right? By "get better" all I meant was require rules clarifications less often, understand how game aspects work and generally become a better player. Not an optimizer, not a rules lawyer, but someone who is better at the game and doesn't need to ask which die they need to roll to make an attack. And I already clarified that I wasn't talking about "new" players who just don't know the ropes yet. Maybe my overly aggressive writing made people miss that, but I'm not talking about new players. I'm talking about players who actively [I]don't [/I]show an interest in learning how the game works and usually they insist that their lack of knowledge be catered to by constant interruptions and misapplications of the rules. I don't know how [I]any[/I] of you can argue that some people "don't want to get better" at D&D. Sure, you may not want to become optimizers, but that's not objectively [I]better[/I]. Maybe you get better at staying in character. Maybe you get better at using the tools of the game to create the right theme for your character, maybe you just ask fewer rules questions because you know how X, Y or Z works. But I mean, I dunno I guess if you guys are telling me there are some people who want to play D&D, but have no interest in expanding their understanding of how the game works, well I just don't know what to tell you. To me that sounds like wanting to drive but not wanting to learn the rules of the road and reminds me of some particular players I refuse to play with. So hey maybe what I said came out wrong, maybe I'm misunderstanding you guys, I'm just telling you what I'm hearing. [/QUOTE]

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