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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Particle_Man" data-source="post: 1376155" data-attributes="member: 892">Ok, fair enough.  Let's compare the generic warrior to the generic expert, and leave the PHB classes alone.Let's do an "Economy of Feats" comparison between the generic warrior and the generic expert.First off, the warrior gets 4 more bonus feats.Second, the warrior has a HD of d10 compared to a HD of d6 for the expert.  This is a bit like taking Improved Toughness twice (Complete Warrior) so I will count that as 2 feats.The warrior BAB ends up as five points higher.  I will count that as 5 "Weapon Focus" feats.The warrior can use shields (1 feat), medium armor (1 feat) and all martial weapons instead of just 1 for the expert (I will give just 1 feat to the warrior for that, but technically it is worth about 20 feats).On to the expert.  The expert has 7 class skills more than the warrior (profession and 6 more).  There is a feat on p.81 of UA that lets one translate class 2 skills of one class into class skills of one's current class (permanent class skills) so let's say that getting 2 class skills is worth a feat.  That would be 3.5 feats.In the Book of Exalted Deeds, there is a feat called Nymph's Kiss that lets one get +1 save vs. spells and +1 skill point/level and +1 on CHR checks.  Pretty powerful, so let's make a feat that only lets one get +1 skill point/lvl.  In that case, the expert has 4 more skill points/level than the warrior, for a total of 4 feats.What is left?  The expert has one extra good save.  This makes one save 6 points higher at 20th level, kind of like taking Iron Will (or whatever) three times, so that will be 3 feats.So, the advantages of the warrior over the expert are 4 + 2 + 5 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 14 feats.The advantages of the expert over the warrior are 3.5 + 4 + 3 = 10.5 feats.So by the feat economy, the warrior has 3.5 more feats than the expert, and I feel that I was being generous to the expert here.  In order to be at par, the expert would need about 4 more skill points/level, or else 3 more skill points/level and 2 more class skills.  (I am rounding the 1/2 of the experts 3.5 class skill feats down since no one cares much about profession, I imagine).  Another alternative, I suppose, is to apply the warrior feat progression to the expert, but that brings the classes too close together, IMHO.I have no idea how to measure the "economy of feats" of the generic spellcaster, because I don't know how to calculate how many feats the spellcasting ability is worth.  But the generic warrior outclasses the generic expert, unless the expert's skill points/level is increased to 10 (I was conservative in an earlier post when I said that they should be 8).  This would seem to be about right.  If the warrior is "almost" a fighter, and the spellcaster is "almost" a sorceror, then the expert should be "almost" a rogue, and the extra skill points makes up for the fact that there are no skills that the spellcaster or warrior cannot take that the expert can, and no "rogue" abilities that the spellcaster or warrior cannot take that the expert can.  If the rogue is the skill monkey of the regular classes, then to have a skill monkey in the generics, one needs to beef up the skill points, because there is no other positive distinction between the expert and the other two or three generics.Note also that the divine spellcaster can turn undead (1 feat), the arcane spellcaster can get a familiar (1 feat), but the divine spellcaster can cast spells in armor (although she doesn't have armor proficiencies).  If that ability is worth anything, then the divine spellcaster outclasses the arcane spellcaster.  Personally, I would make the penalty apply across the board.</blockquote>

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