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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 7708983" data-attributes="member: 6801228">Going to quote you out of orderYes, a sorcery point coming from the pool is cheaper than the point coming from a slot. I will agree to that. But, I don’t see why it should cost so much to make slots. As it is, I’ve never seen and frankly can’t think if I’ve heard of people changing points into slots. Not because metamagic is so good, but because the cost is too high. You don’t get enough value making slots to make it worthwhile, which cuts into what they can do per day. I see people claiming that sorcerers and wizards have the same daily resources, but when you peel back that first level, it is frankly not true. If I only replaced the Wizard’s arcane recovery with a pool of points, it would clearly be an upgrade. If that pool, which only replaced arcane recovery, could also be used to alter spells, it would be an even better upgrade.Would you want that pool of points at the cost of your spellbook, 3/4 of all your spells ever known, ritual casting, and nerfing half your subclass features? IS that pool of points worth all that?That’s the kicker, that’s the comparison. Yes, Font of Magic in isolation is slightly better than Arcane recovery. It had better be, because the sorcerer is gimped at every turn by the access to metamagic that this represents. They get fewer spells, fewer ways to cast spells, fewer ways to learn spells, and fewer abilities outside those spells, than almost any other full caster. Because they have metamagic. And the Lore wizard gets better metamagic than they do at level 6. Hell, they get really good metamagic at level 2, before the Sorcerer even starts getting any metamagic. Without sacrificing any of those base class features.Yes, spending those spell slots is a cost. It may even be slightly more expensive than the sorcerers, but they are flat out better. Sorcerer takes empower and Heighten as their two metamagicsA sorcerer uses empower on a fireball. They can reroll 4-5 dice of damage, hopefully getting a higher result. This costs 1 point.Wizard spends a 1st level slot, and their fireball does an automatic 2d10 extra force damage to every target in the fireball. Sorcerer heightens the Fireball, giving one creature within it disadvantage.Wizard spends an additional 3rd level slot, increasing the DC by 2 for every single creature in the spell. Equivalent to giving them all a -2 on their save.Wizard can also change the elementWizard can also make the fireball target Intelligence or CharismaWizard can also cast the fireball from a mile away.Now yes, my sorcerer probably chose Quicken and Twin instead, and these abilities can’t do that, but does that excuse the wizard, who was already superior to the sorcerer, getting better metamagic when we look at the equivalent abilities? Yes, it may be slightly more expensive for them, but since Arcane Recovery is roughly equivalent to the Sorcerers entire pool of points, they are awfully close to having the system. And the Wizard has the better version, and all the options and utility that make them a wizard in the first place. As to sorcery point abilities being the minority. Dragon sorcerer is 2/5ths if you count the ribbon of speaking draconic and expertise with talking with dragons. Otherwise it is 50%. Wild is 1/5, but 3/5 of their stuff is tied up with the wild surge mechanic, which is 5% chance even with a lenient DM. And that is if we decouple metamagic from spellcasting, which is difficult to do, since metamagic does nothing without the spell casting, and base sorcerer is Spellcasting, Metamagic, and ability score improvements. And I see this after typing all that. This is what I get for not being as active. I’ve heard rolling Spell Points and Sorcerery Points into a big pot is a good fix for Sorcerer, but I’ve never seen it in practice. Maybe comparing a 1st level spell to 1 sorcerery point is a little unfair. I’ll admit that I am not rational about this right now. I’ve advocated for improving the sorcerer a lot, and been shot down a lot, and seeing this Lore Wizard has put me a little over the edge. However, the cost of the point depends on the direction. If a single 1st level slot is worth more than 1 sorcery point, then why is that all I get when I burn my precious slot? If the slot is worth less, then why does it cost me 2 precious points to make one, and also the Wizard is getting a tremendous deal in their metamagic, getting a lower price for a better usage. They set up this asymmetrical system, and depending on which resource you value, colors how you see it. Either answer seems bad, which is a problem. This is only true if you completely ignore Arcane Recovery and Ritual Casting. Yes, I’m aware my sorcerer could take a feat and get a weaker version (because it is fewer spells and costs money to get more) of Ritual Caster. However, let’s assume I don’t do that. The wizard can ritual cast anything he needs for utility, meaning he doesn’t spend those slots, and Arcane Recovery (as we’ve been discussing) is nearly equivalent to the extra slots sorcerery points can create. X (base Caster) + Y (Q(sorcery points for slots) -M ( actually using metamagic)) ≤  X(base Caster)+ V(ritual casting) + C (Arcane Recovery) – Z(lore sacrificing slots)So… if you have a damage that doesn’t work, or you know a damage that is more powerful, you can use it. How is that not as powerful as it seems? Sure, there will be times when it is pure flavor to use any damage type, but it costs you nothing, and can allow you to hit Vulnerable damage types. As for the save, if -7 to a roll for all creatures within it isn’t huge, then first of all, I want you to talk to the poor bard who can only begin reaching those numbers with cutting words by 5th level is he’s lucky against a single creature, by 15th I think he can hit those penalties regularly. Then I’ll direct you to the Ancient White, where changing their save from Con (+14) to Int (+0) is a difference of -14 to the roll. Or perhaps Feeblemind a Lich, but make it a strength save, making go from +12 with advantage to +0 with advantage. Is -12 big enough to make this 1/day ability a huge deal? Sure, over the normal course of low level adventuring, it is “only” a -7 to whatever save you’d like the enemy to make, but it gets better, not worse, as time goes on. And yet, try and argue that the sorcerer needs fixing, and you are told how powerful they are and what an immense benefit the ability to alter your spells are. Don’t try to play them as damage dealers, they are buffers and debuffers. Don’t worry about limited damage types, you only need 3 damage spells at all times anyways, and if those don’t work…. Well, you’re a member of a party aren’t you, you can’t think you can do it all.Then, we get this wizard. It’s kind of a “straw that broke the camel’s patience” sort of storyHow much metagaming is needed to know that the enemy cleric, who looks sickly and weak, has a lower Con score than Wisdom score?A lot of the basic spread of enemy stats is self-evident, no metagame required. Also, kind of hard to prevent anyways, unless you plan on trying to shame the player for choosing the monsters weak stat. Wouldn’t an easier fix to the Hexblade be making the Curse only work with Melee attacks? This way, the Eldritch Blast Warlock has no incentive to go for Hexblade, and the Hexblade can focus on creating the melee build they want. If they want a 1d10+cha attack, then can just forgo the shield and use versatile weapons. IF they want the Ac from the shield, they drop down to 1d8. Then as they get higher level, especially as a bladelock, they can begin adding enough mods to the damage to overtake Eldritch blast.For me, the key is that Eldritch Blast is a poor choice for melee, disadvantage, and I just want the bladelock/ Hexbladelock to be closer to Rangers or rogues in melee. Not to neccesarily beat out Eldritch blast, which is frankly the best ranged damage option for an at-will character in the entire game. Nothing beats it outside of full spells. It really is just an immensely powerful cantrip, and I’d worry about trying to rebalance a melee character to match it, when you just aren’t going to be able to without making a melee character better than the current options.</blockquote>

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