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Message: <blockquote data-quote="bestone" data-source="post: 3356339" data-attributes="member: 48880">First offNo, and you know very well thats poor logic, like i said, your grapsing at strawsSunder states you can use it ase a MELEE ATTACKBull rush says as a standard action, I dont see how you can compare those? does it say anywhere in bullrush you can use it as a melee attackSecondly, i see no-where, nowhere in the phb where it states sunder is a standard action. Because it doesnt, You can read the whole section on sunder and it wont say that. Oh but the table you say..... Well the table lists actions in combat, and what kind of action they count as, if you make a melee attack, it takes up a standard action, if you read a scroll, same thing, cast a spell, same thing, Its in no way saying these things ARE standard actions, its saying if you do them, it takes a standard action.Like i said, in there it shows supernatural abilities, does that mean that ALL supernatural abilities are standard actions because the table says so, regardless of what thier text says? no of course notIf you make an attack, it takes up a standard action. If you make a sunder, which is an attack, it aswell takes up your standard action for the turn.But you cant, with irrefutable proof, show me anywhere where it states and specifically, that sunder a) cant be used on attacks of opportunity and b) is a standard action.Infact, sunder is not even listed under the text for standard actions!The table has no text saying that these actions count as standard actions, it simplyshows that if you take that action in combat, it counts as whats listedIf you make a trip attack during your turn, that is a standard action (or of course, part of a full round action), so really the fact that it is or is not a standard action doesnt matter, now does it?If you enter total defense, that counts as a standard actionIf you make a melee attack, that counts as a standard actionThe biggest flaw, as i've pointed out several times, and you havent been able to rebuffis supernatural abilities and the like. If you use a supernatural ability, its a standard action, according to the table, but the text says that they are usually, but not always, and there are some supernatural abilities that are not standard actions. But you argue that you have to be able to use a standard action for the text to come into effect????? AGAIN show me where this is stated and you'll win this argumentSo your left with what, the fact that its not foot noted? it doesnt need to be, it says what it does in its text.When you want to sunder, you look up what sunder does, under the special attacks - sunder section, and you see that you can use it as one of your melee attacks.When you make an attack of opportunity, you make a melee attackRaw, you can sunder as your attack of opportunity's melee attackin that other thread you tried telling me that the text only comes into play when the action can be used *which is a standard action*, where is this ruling, tell me that? where does it say this?, i dont see it anywhere, your making it up. What happens on a sunder attempt is listed under the sunder rules, in the book, and they are clear you can use it as a melee attack.Besides that fact, are you telling me you honestly believe with all sincerity that it makes sense you could a: grapple someone b: disarm someone c:attack someone d: trip someone, but you couldnt take a swipe at thier weapon they are lunging at you?</blockquote>

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