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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hypersmurf" data-source="post: 3356390" data-attributes="member: 1656">It says it's an attack...?Sunder and Bull Rush are both defined as standard actions; I'm not sure why one definition counts and the other doesn't...?... right.  If you want to Sunder, it takes a standard action.  Isn't that what I've been saying?It means that unless the specific supernatural ability states otherwise, it's a standard action.As written, for example, Smite Evil is a standard action, because it doesn't specify otherwise; that standard action allows you to make a normal melee attack with some bonuses.Rather, if you take the attack action, it's a standard action.  Making an attack might be part of the attack action, the full attack action, the charge action, the Manyshot action, the Sunder action, the Cast a Spell action, the Smite Evil action, or even an AoO.  Using a melee attack to strike an opponent's weapon or shield, on the other hand, is part of the Sunder action.Right.  If you take the Sunder action in combat, it counts as a standard action.A Trip isn't a standard action; it replaces a melee attack, and can thus be used once in an Attack or Charge action, one or more times in a Full Attack action, or on an AoO.  A Sunder is a standard action, and you can use a melee attack to strike an opponent's weapon or shield.The attack action is a standard action.  Making a melee attack is part of assorted actions - one of which is the Sunder standard action.The Full Attack action does not consist of multiple standard actions strung together; rather, it's multiple melee attacks, all of which are part of a single full round action.I'm saying that if you're not taking the Charge action, the description of what happens when you Charge is irrelevant.  If you're not taking the Cast a Spell action, it doesn't matter how you cast spells.If you're taking the Sunder action, you can use a melee attack to strike an opponent's weapon or shield.  If you aren't taking the Sunder action, you can't use a melee attack to strike an opponent's weapon or shield.If you're taking the Full Attack action, you aren't taking the Sunder action... so you can't use a melee attack to strike an opponent's weapon or shield.  If you're making an AoO, you aren't taking the Sunder action... so you can't use a melee attack to strike an opponent's weapon or shield.  You can only use a melee attack to strike an opponent's weapon or shield if you're taking the Sunder action... which is a standard action, not action type: varies.Not if you aren't taking the Sunder action.Are you telling me it makes sense that if someone's running past you, you could grapple them, disarm them, attack them, trip them, but not shove them off the bridge?Are you telling me it makes sense that if someone tries to shoot at you four times, you could (with Combat Reflexes) hit them four times... but if they're paralyzed, you don't even get to hit them once?I'm not concerned with what 'makes sense'; I'm merely concerned with the fact that the table says Sunder is a standard action, and the description of that standard action says you can use a melee attack to strike a weapon.  If you aren't taking the action, you aren't striking the weapon...But there's no contradiction.  When you're taking the standard action (per the table), what can you do?  You can use a melee attack to strike a weapon (per the text).  Both are satisfied; neither needs to take precedence, because both are true.-Hyp.</blockquote>

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