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Message: <blockquote data-quote="bestone" data-source="post: 3356407" data-attributes="member: 48880">Where does it say sunder is an standard action? in your table? no it says Actions in combat, sundering in combat is a standard action, as is melee attacks. I read no words stating anywhere that sunder is a standard aciton. Your assuming that because its listen on a table that shows actions being taken in combat counting as standard actions, that it counts as one, but thats an assumption, it never clearly states that anyways, and since there is discrepency, go with the text of sunder <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":P" title="Stick out tongue    :P"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":P" />But you said the text doesnt come into effect unless you can make that action?????? so now your contradicting yourself, so now your saying if the text says otherwise it can be done?You've still yet to prove that it says anywhere that you cant use an action's text because it counts as a standard action? No where in any rule book does it say you have to be able to use a standard action to be able to use an special attack that counts as one when used, or the text becomes invalid.When you trip as a melee attack, its a standard action, or part of a full round action, just like sunder, if you sunder as an attack its a standard action, no-where under trip or sunder does it state they are standard actions. Infact the fact trip is in a section called "varies" in your table even proves my point even moreThe action trip counts as varies , it can be used as a standard action (as a melee attack) or part of a fulll round action, Or as a counter trip if someone tries to trip you. This shows not that the table is stating WHAT ACTIONS things are, but more, what actions they count as when used.You've still yet to show me any text where it states sunder is a standard action, only an assumption that the table states that, and that the table then over-rules the text, which it doesnt. which is discrepency. Sure is, if an ability is listed on a table as a standard action, but it has a special form of getting it off listed in its text, the text takes precedense. In this case, sunder can be used as a standard action, but it can also be used as a melee attack, a melee attack is just that, a melee attack. Your still putting words and assumptions into how sunder is written, and your contradictiong your own arguments. "supernatural abilities can be used as what they are because thier text says so, but sunder cant because its listed as a standard action and that makes its text irrelevant"You cant have it both ways you know, either the text states how it works, or it doesnt, And the text states it can be used as a melee attack, during an attack of opportunity you get a melee attack.YOU are trying to add words that are not written anywhere, that state "when you can sunder" Which is not how its written, and that makes your logic not RAW. RAW you can very well sunder on an attack of opportunityI see none of this under the sunder special attacks description, NOR DO i see sunder under the standard actions text. (which you cleverly left out in your rebuttal, text precedes tables, and the text of the tables doesnt list it as a standard action). Sunder does not say "when making a sunder you can use a melee attack" it says You can use a melee attack to sunder. The text for actions in combat, which precedes the table, does not list sunder as a standard action under it, you again, are simply assuming that the table is labelling everything under it a standard action, instead of saying when you take that special attack, or do whats listed that it counts as that action. I see discrepency enough there to go with the textAnd both the text on standard actions, and sunder never state it counts as its own standard action.</blockquote>

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