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General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
unfortunately not Finally settled, sunder and attacks of opp
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<blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 3358084" data-attributes="member: 2011"><p>An AoO is not an action. With the exception of Immediate Actions and the Readied Action, actions are performed on a character's turn.</p><p></p><p>An AoO is no different than a Saving Throw, an Opposed Strength check, etc. It is a game mechanic, but it is not an action.</p><p></p><p>An AoO is an attack. But, that does not mean it is an action.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>All I agree is that anything that states it is a melee action can be done on an AoO unless it has explicit rules text to the contrary.</p><p></p><p></p><p>What rules do we have to support this:</p><p></p><p>1) The Sunder rules themselves specify that Sunder is a melee attack. The Attack of Opportunities rule states a melee attack.</p><p></p><p>2) We have two different Rules of the Game articies (one in 2004, one in 2005) that specify that Sunder can be used as an attack of opportunity.</p><p></p><p><a href="http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050705a" target="_blank">http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050705a</a></p><p><a href="http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041102a" target="_blank">http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041102a</a></p><p></p><p>3) We have two different FAQ rulings that indicate that Sunder can be used as an attack of opportunity.</p><p></p><p>4) <strong>And the Combat Action table states that both a Melee Attack and Sunder are Standard Actions, both without the 7 footnote.</strong> If Sunders cannot be done as AoOs because they are a standard action on that table, then neither can Melee Attacks. The sole argument people of the opposing POV are using can also be used to indicate that regular melee attack Attacks of Opportunity <strong>NEVER</strong> occur in the game.</p><p></p><p>The Melee Attack entry on the Combat Actions table totally shatters the opposing POV. IMO.</p><p></p><p></p><p>What rules do we have to not support this:</p><p></p><p>1) A Sunder table entry under the <strong>Combat Actions</strong> section where Attacks of Opportunity are not even defined as actions.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Quite frankly, it appears that WotC itself does not agree with Hyp's assessment. The FAQ does not agree. Rules of the Game does not agree. Even the Combat Table is forced to have an exception to itself for Melee Actions.</p><p></p><p>Hence, the only reasonable conclusion is that the Combat Actions table does not apply because Attacks of Opportunity are not Actions. They are melee attacks.</p><p></p><p>The Combat Actions table only applies for Actions in Combat, not for non-actions.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="KarinsDad, post: 3358084, member: 2011"] An AoO is not an action. With the exception of Immediate Actions and the Readied Action, actions are performed on a character's turn. An AoO is no different than a Saving Throw, an Opposed Strength check, etc. It is a game mechanic, but it is not an action. An AoO is an attack. But, that does not mean it is an action. All I agree is that anything that states it is a melee action can be done on an AoO unless it has explicit rules text to the contrary. What rules do we have to support this: 1) The Sunder rules themselves specify that Sunder is a melee attack. The Attack of Opportunities rule states a melee attack. 2) We have two different Rules of the Game articies (one in 2004, one in 2005) that specify that Sunder can be used as an attack of opportunity. [url]http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050705a[/url] [url]http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041102a[/url] 3) We have two different FAQ rulings that indicate that Sunder can be used as an attack of opportunity. 4) [b]And the Combat Action table states that both a Melee Attack and Sunder are Standard Actions, both without the 7 footnote.[/b] If Sunders cannot be done as AoOs because they are a standard action on that table, then neither can Melee Attacks. The sole argument people of the opposing POV are using can also be used to indicate that regular melee attack Attacks of Opportunity [b]NEVER[/b] occur in the game. The Melee Attack entry on the Combat Actions table totally shatters the opposing POV. IMO. What rules do we have to not support this: 1) A Sunder table entry under the [b]Combat Actions[/b] section where Attacks of Opportunity are not even defined as actions. Quite frankly, it appears that WotC itself does not agree with Hyp's assessment. The FAQ does not agree. Rules of the Game does not agree. Even the Combat Table is forced to have an exception to itself for Melee Actions. Hence, the only reasonable conclusion is that the Combat Actions table does not apply because Attacks of Opportunity are not Actions. They are melee attacks. The Combat Actions table only applies for Actions in Combat, not for non-actions. [/QUOTE]
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