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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hypersmurf" data-source="post: 3358803" data-attributes="member: 1656">You've said this about fifteen times in the last page.I'm never said "The text states you can replace any melee attack with a Sunder attempt, but the table contradicts it so I'm ignoring it".What I've said is that the text taken in isolation can be read in two ways, and that if the table did not exist, I'd be inclined to read it in the way that says you can replace any melee attack with a Sunder attempt.  But since the table does exist, I consider that way invalid once the text is no longer considered in isolation.The text is never ignored.  It just doesn't mean what you think it means... because if it did, it would contradict the table.  It means something else, which doesn't contradict the table.Please stop saying "He agrees with our interpretation of the wording but chooses to ignore the text" (especially in five posts in a row!), because that's not my position at all.I've said that when taking the Sunder action, you can use a melee attack to strike a weapon.  You seem to think that this means I'm saying when taking the Sunder action, you can replace any melee attack derived from any other action with a strike on a weapon.  This is not how I'm reading the phrase at all.  As I read it, "You can use a melee attack to strike a weapon" in this context (once the table is taken into account) is saying "You're Sundering?  Have a melee attack!  Strike a weapon with it!", not "You want to Sunder?  You'll need to pay a melee attack for the privilege.  Thank you - now go strike a weapon!"I draw quite a distinction between "In place of a melee attack" and "You can use a melee attack"... and Sunder says the second, not the first.There is no Attack action within the Charge action.  There is a melee attack, and if Sunder carried footnote 7, it could replace that melee attack.  But it doesn't.If it were typically used as part of the Attack action, but able to be used in a Charge or Full Attack action or an AoO, it would be Action Type: Varies and carry footnote 7.  It's not part of any other action, though; it's its own standard action.The Bull Rush entry is correct; you can bull rush as a standard action (the Bull Rush standard action from Table 8-2) or as part of a charge (the Charge full round action from Table 8-2).  If you're Bull Rushing as part of a charge, you don't use the Bull Rush standard action, you use the Charge action.If Sunder is used in place of any melee attack, however, there would be no need for a Sunder standard action; you would Sunder as part of an Attack action, Full Attack action, or Charge action.  The standard action entry on the table would be meaningless, because the Sunder action would never be taken, only the Attack action (etc), and the maneuver would appear as Action Type: Varies and carry footnote 7.But the standard action entry for Sunder does appear, and doesn't carry footnote 7.-Hyp.</blockquote>

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