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Message: <blockquote data-quote="bestone" data-source="post: 3358892" data-attributes="member: 48880">My side of the argument has quoted rules, game designers, published wizard articles, and other sources that agree with us.Hyp's side of the argument is relying on the statementYou cant use the description for sunder, unless you have the action to make the standard action sunder.I've asked for a rule to prove this staement, a quote, i get noneThere is no rule that states that the rules written for something dont apply if that something is considered a standard action. There is no rule stating that you must be able to make a standard action, if something as labeled as such, for the rule to apply. i've never read anything of the like thats written that you get to ignore the rules on how to apply or use something becasue its listed as a type of action anyhwere.You dont get to dis-regard the text as hyp claims, the text is the rule for sunder, it is the primary source of information on how to use sunder.Thus, how can you possibly tell me, the rules as given under sunder, which we are all in agreeance with, dont apply, and expect me to take them as raw?In my argument, i quote the rules, and say we go by whats ruled under sunderYou quote what? ...what rule? I've yet to see a rule quoted that as i've said many times now, that allows you to ignore, or not use sunder, as it is written.</blockquote>