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<blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 3361547" data-attributes="member: 2011">Precisely.Except that the text of Sunder does not call out a Sunder as a Standard Action. Nowhere.Notice the word &quot;if&quot; in your sentence here. The problem with &quot;if&quot; is that it is not the same as &quot;because&quot;. This is like wishful thinking. &quot;If we pretend that it means one thing and not what it actually states, then there is no contradiction.&quot;. <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/laugh.png"&nbsp; class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing&nbsp; &nbsp; :lol:" data-shortname=":lol:" /> Changing the Sunder text from &quot;Melee Attack&quot; to &quot;Melee Attack as a Standard Action&quot; is a very specific modification of what the Sunder text actually states.In order for Hyp's POV of be correct, the wording of the Sunder text has to be changed. The primary source for the rule has to be changed from &quot;Melee Attack&quot; to &quot;Melee Attack as a Standard Action&quot;.Hence, Hyp's POV is incorrect.Not to mention all of the other WotC sources that disagree with him.A Melee Attack can be part of a Standard Action. But, it also can be part of a Full Round Attack or a Charge Action or an Attack of Opportunity. That is part of the game mechanic definition of a Melee Attack. It can be used for any of these.These are all properties that the Sunder rules by definition gain by the phrase &quot;Melee Attack&quot; unless a different primary source rule corrects it.The Sunder text explicitly states Sunder is used as a Melee Attack. It's there in black and white.One cannot just willy nilly change that because a non-primary source states something different.Every source but one that we have states that a Sunder is a Melee Attack. Only one source states that it is a Standard Action and that source is not the primary source.Hence, it is wrong.Hyp's side of the argument cannot have it both ways. The table cannot be a primary source over the FAQ without the text being a primary source over the table.The weasel room he is trying to create is one of there not being a contradiction. But that's not precise and when discussing rules as you yourself stated &quot;It is then our duty so see what it is that the primary source says&quot;.The primary source says &quot;Melee Attack&quot;. Period.There is a definitive game mechanic difference between &quot;Melee Attack&quot; and &quot;Melee Attack as a Standard Action&quot; and hence, the primary source does in fact contradict the non-primary source.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="KarinsDad, post: 3361547, member: 2011"] Precisely. Except that the text of Sunder does not call out a Sunder as a Standard Action. Nowhere. Notice the word "if" in your sentence here. The problem with "if" is that it is not the same as "because". This is like wishful thinking. "If we pretend that it means one thing and not what it actually states, then there is no contradiction.". :lol: Changing the Sunder text from "Melee Attack" to "Melee Attack as a Standard Action" is a very specific modification of what the Sunder text actually states. In order for Hyp's POV of be correct, the wording of the Sunder text has to be changed. The primary source for the rule has to be changed from "Melee Attack" to "Melee Attack as a Standard Action". Hence, Hyp's POV is incorrect. Not to mention all of the other WotC sources that disagree with him. A Melee Attack can be part of a Standard Action. But, it also can be part of a Full Round Attack or a Charge Action or an Attack of Opportunity. That is part of the game mechanic definition of a Melee Attack. It can be used for any of these. These are all properties that the Sunder rules by definition gain by the phrase "Melee Attack" unless a [b]different primary source[/b] rule corrects it. The Sunder text [b]explicitly[/b] states Sunder is used as a Melee Attack. It's there in black and white. One cannot just willy nilly change that because a non-primary source states something different. Every source but one that we have states that a Sunder is a Melee Attack. Only one source states that it is a Standard Action and that source is not the primary source. Hence, it is wrong. Hyp's side of the argument cannot have it both ways. The table cannot be a primary source over the FAQ without the text being a primary source over the table. The weasel room he is trying to create is one of there not being a contradiction. But that's not precise and when discussing rules as you yourself stated "It is then our duty so see what it is that the primary source says". The primary source says "Melee Attack". Period. There is a definitive game mechanic difference between "Melee Attack" and "Melee Attack as a Standard Action" and hence, the primary source does in fact contradict the non-primary source. [/QUOTE]

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