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Message: <blockquote data-quote="doggywoggy" data-source="post: 4791856" data-attributes="member: 83752">I didn't mean to start any edition "war", (is it not allowed to mention other editions?). I didn't know people were so touchy. As for me, when and if I get fed up with the rules of 4e, I will simply play a different game. I really don't care, life's too short. I did, however, spend enough time looking at the 4e rules for good combinations and it seems like 4e is a strategy board game. Fun in its own right, but also sucky when you have to jump through contorted hoops to figure out why you can't apply your strength damage to something heavy you hurl. Fine, it takes Dex. If I need to throw and make it count, I'll just use a basic attack and an off hand attack with the other one as a minor action. Problem solved.I have no problem with Rogues stabbing people to death better than all others over time, but if you're up against, say, a huge titan or something, what "realistically" do you think will hurt it more, a dagger or a massive fireball? If you say the former, well, we have different opinions and leave it at that. Maybe I am spoiled in 2nd ed. However, once your spells are gone you are basically canon fodder--even then, once your stoneskins are gone and out of fly / invis / tp you are also a goner. Enemies tend to hit way more crits against you than you do them, averaged over the lifespan vs PCs. I spent most of 2-3 years avoiding combat in any way I could. The last thing I killed in melee was when the rest of the party was all down, at lvl 1, with a call shot dagger to the eye of a small dragon : natural 20. These are the moments which to me are magical, and probably a reason I will never quit playing Dnd my whole life. The balance of earlier ed wizards was that it was much less likely than, say, a fighter, of surviving up to high levels, given how pathetically weak you are. I also don't like the fact that I couldn't melt a lock with my dragon breath (acid) weapon, or if I picked fire that I couldn't even light up a torch. That's a 0th level cantrip in 2nd ed, for F's sake. It seems in 4e all it is is combat-related, otherwise it's a huge production to set up rituals. What proportion of people in 4e spend a feat in ritual casting if they don't already get it for free? I looked through them...not too blown away, frankly. It's like an after thought. And what's up with no rituals in combat? There are many more things I'm disappointed in but others that I really do like. For a combat-oriented game it's pretty strategic and fun...if a bit too long. Maybe if Wotc managed to find a way to monetize people spending inordinate amounts of time in combat (oh wait, they did) they could give us stuff that would actually shorten them. I can't imagine spending more than a few hours in a single encounter. Usually in 2e we have 6-10 encounters PER session. (6 hours). In 4e, at 3rd lvl, we managed to have 1-2 / encounter. Maybe it's just cuz we were learning the system. Anyway, it IS fun, but sometimes...man. I gotta ask myself if all this is worth it. Hanging with my friends makes it so....but honestly I wish we were playing 3.5 full time. I also feel somewhat "detached" from anything but the mechanics of the game system. Modules emphasize that feeling of "temporariness" for me, that can only be replaced by a feeling for my character that goes beyond items and feat and which frankly I haven't had yet. For instance, not to focus only on the DM, but the other players seem to be more focused on "hey it's been three weeks since we had a battle" -- duh, we're in town, resting and planning. Actually, since 4e makes it such a huge ordeal to have a battle compared with 2e (tiles, minis, etc...which I actually love and own tons of), I find that we could probably had a couple skirmishes in town. My 2nd ed group is sometimes so brash (paladins that act more like how they did in the 1st Crusade..out for money, blood, and glory-- in that order) that it's rare for us to even meet one group of new NPCs that we don't end up with some type of altercation (even allies). And these proceed, but quickly. We might get sidetracked, but we get there. I guess what I'm saying is that RP has taken a back seat to character optimization. That's the way the rules seem to push it. I rarely see anyone at the other game table worrying about what + they have to hit with what power, or why --not to beat on a dead horse--you can't get a str bonus for an attack that clearly uses it. The meta-game seems to be "the game". I hope it doesn't have to be that way, but if we spend another hour or so mid-battle arguing about some rule or other, I will seriously say screw this. It happened so many times that it's like, whoah, what happened to simplicity? Instead of simplicity, we get complexity that doesn't even reward us with more realism. It's very micro-manage-y, I find. I really like the story aspect better, but honestly modules make it seem sometimes like the adventure is on rails, like someone has already boldly gone. I couldn't believe the first time we got ambushed by those goblins how long the combat took. It was cool, but not sure if it's worth it. And if I'm going to play a complex game, you can be darned sure I intend to play it the most strategically I can, looking at every possibility for character options I like flavour-wise, as well as game-mechanics wise. E.g. I'm just not that into MordenKrad or Fullblade or Bastard sword. I'm an ax man for better or for worse.</blockquote>

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