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<blockquote data-quote="Raven Crowking" data-source="post: 3922078" data-attributes="member: 18280">Did you try what I suggested?&nbsp; Trying something else, even if another attempt to do low magic, doesn't give you any insight into whether or not what I suggest will work.Math is only part of how a role-playing game rules system works, even in the most math-heavy part of the game.&nbsp; In actual play, players can do all sorts of things to sway the math in their favour (and do).&nbsp; Having run 60 goblins against 3rd and 4th level PCs, with the PCs gaining a rather easy victory, I am well aware of how smart thinking against dumb opponents can work to the players' advantage.Within the encounter as described, the wizard is very likely to take out a quarter of the goblins in his first go.&nbsp; If he is smart, he will center his area effect in the back, where the archers are located.&nbsp; The rogue's sneak attack ability is almost useless in this position, but each rogue will take out three goblins each round, all the while trying to protect the wizard as much as possible.&nbsp; The figther is taking out a minimum of 4 goblins each round, and his Great Cleave and Combat Reflexes, there is a good chance that he is taking out quite a few more.&nbsp; The rogues also have Combat Reflexes, which limits the goblin's mobility.&nbsp; Fighting defensively doesn't affect the number of goblins these guys can kill per round too much, but the +2 to AC certainly helps them.&nbsp; The wizard, of course, can use Total Defense on any round he doesn't otherwise need a standard action.&nbsp; Finally, if the party can clear a path to a tunnel, and then use the tunnel as a &quot;choke point&quot; to prevent themselves from being surrounded, they can do quite well indeed.No matter what they do, however, they are going to use up resources....and those lost resources will mean that the encounter was meaningful.RC</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Raven Crowking, post: 3922078, member: 18280"] Did you try what I suggested? Trying something else, even if another attempt to do low magic, doesn't give you any insight into whether or not what I suggest will work. Math is only part of how a role-playing game rules system works, even in the most math-heavy part of the game. In actual play, players can do all sorts of things to sway the math in their favour (and do). Having run 60 goblins against 3rd and 4th level PCs, with the PCs gaining a rather easy victory, I am well aware of how smart thinking against dumb opponents can work to the players' advantage. Within the encounter as described, the wizard is very likely to take out a quarter of the goblins in his first go. If he is smart, he will center his area effect in the back, where the archers are located. The rogue's sneak attack ability is almost useless in this position, but each rogue will take out three goblins each round, all the while trying to protect the wizard as much as possible. The figther is taking out a minimum of 4 goblins each round, and his Great Cleave and Combat Reflexes, there is a good chance that he is taking out quite a few more. The rogues also have Combat Reflexes, which limits the goblin's mobility. Fighting defensively doesn't affect the number of goblins these guys can kill per round too much, but the +2 to AC certainly helps them. The wizard, of course, can use Total Defense on any round he doesn't otherwise need a standard action. Finally, if the party can clear a path to a tunnel, and then use the tunnel as a "choke point" to prevent themselves from being surrounded, they can do quite well indeed. No matter what they do, however, they are going to use up resources....and those lost resources will mean that the encounter was meaningful. RC [/QUOTE]

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