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Unpopular Opinion?: D&D is a terrible venue for horror
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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 8102002" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>I never claimed you said D&D was specifically designed for horror -- why would I when you haven't made this claim at all. You've actually gone further here than you have previously and claimed D&D is a great system to model horror, to which the challenge I present above stands -- you can show where system elements exist that enable horror. So far, everything you've strongly presented has nothing to do with the 5e system.</p><p></p><p>Secondly, if you're altering the system -- something you can do with any system so not a particular strength of 5e -- then you're tacitly admitting that 5e needs to be changed to enable horror.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Irrelevant to the premise of the thread -- if things are system agnostic, then 5e cannot claim them as strengths. Instead, what elements of 5e's system enable horror? Given that the advice that does go to 5e's system is advice to change that system, this is not a strong argument that 5e does horror well.</p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"></li> </ul><p>This actually cuts against horror by empowering PCs to be able to effective fight, which limits available horror tropes to survival horror.</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"></li> </ul><p>Again, goes to empowering PCs to fight.</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"></li> </ul><p>You've listed rest variants twice, which I've acknowledged add resource stress on PCs, but sanity is just hp by a different mechanic -- I'd say it undercuts it's goal to make players scared and just adds another way to remove PCs via a non-scary resource system. Stat generation has nothing at all to do with horror. The madness rules also don't have much to do with horror -- they're required roleplaying elements that are forced onto players by the GM, meaning they're entirely external to the player and not making the player feel scared.</p><p></p><p>In other word, a lot of these are thing that might be mean to the PCs, but don't evoke horror in the players at all. I don't really care if the PC's are told they are scared.</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"></li> </ul><p>Nothing to do with horror. Enables no horror tropes. Horror does not involve progression.</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"></li> </ul><p>This is, at best, neutral to horror, in that not giving PCs magic swords retains the status quo, whereas having magic swords strongly enables PCs to effectively fight horror.</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"></li> </ul><p>Entirely orthogonal to horror -- what horror trope is enabled by subclasses?</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"></li> </ul><p>You've finally caught something in your wide net that can enable horror in 5e, and it's something a huge number of tables ignore.</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul"></li> </ul><p>This could also go to horror, but does so by taking things away from PCs, usually, which also acknowledges that the base 5e system assumptions need to be changed to enable horror.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, if you're changing rules, you're not using 5e anymore, you're using a customized variant of 5e. If it's those exact customizations that are enabling horror then it's not 5e that's enabling horror, it's your customizations. Any system can be customized, so easier than others, so this cannot be a strength of 5e to do horror. Saying, "5e does horror great! You just have to change it so it can do horror," is just not a great argument that 5e does horror well. The focus on combat in 5e, for instance, I've already shown multiple times cuts against horror tropes by making fighting a horror a procedural thing with limited outcomes. </p><p></p><p></p><p>5e is bad for horror -- the system does absolutely nothing to enable horror and often fights against it. Which is why most of the advice in this thread for horror is to do things that have nothing to do with the system, and, when they do, it's to change the system. That you claim these non-system elements and the ability to change 5e's rules where they conflict with horror as strengths of 5e is baffling -- it's your strength as a GM to set mood and describe things that are scary, not 5e's. It's your strength as a GM to note the places 5e has issues and change them to enable your game, not 5e's. I don't understand why you're so eager to take the things you're strong at and gift them to 5e.</p><p></p><p>I do not understand the need to defend 5e against any and all criticism. It's a great game, I love it. It's not perfect, even at what it does well, and it doens't do everything well. D&D's biggest strength is in doing D&D. It's okay if it's not great at other things. You can absolutely do horror in 5e, but you're working around the system to do it, not with it. You have to make changes, both to how you present the game and to the rules of the game. It's telling that no one suggests running 5e with no options and no rules changes and no special setting rules as a good horror game. This clearly shows that vanilla 5e is bad at horror. There are a few optional switches you can throw that help, but you are still going to require some house rules or setting rule changes to get close, and then you're still going to have to work around the system.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 8102002, member: 16814"] I never claimed you said D&D was specifically designed for horror -- why would I when you haven't made this claim at all. You've actually gone further here than you have previously and claimed D&D is a great system to model horror, to which the challenge I present above stands -- you can show where system elements exist that enable horror. So far, everything you've strongly presented has nothing to do with the 5e system. Secondly, if you're altering the system -- something you can do with any system so not a particular strength of 5e -- then you're tacitly admitting that 5e needs to be changed to enable horror. Irrelevant to the premise of the thread -- if things are system agnostic, then 5e cannot claim them as strengths. Instead, what elements of 5e's system enable horror? Given that the advice that does go to 5e's system is advice to change that system, this is not a strong argument that 5e does horror well. [LIST] [/LIST] This actually cuts against horror by empowering PCs to be able to effective fight, which limits available horror tropes to survival horror. [LIST] [*] [/LIST] Again, goes to empowering PCs to fight. [LIST] [*] [/LIST] You've listed rest variants twice, which I've acknowledged add resource stress on PCs, but sanity is just hp by a different mechanic -- I'd say it undercuts it's goal to make players scared and just adds another way to remove PCs via a non-scary resource system. Stat generation has nothing at all to do with horror. The madness rules also don't have much to do with horror -- they're required roleplaying elements that are forced onto players by the GM, meaning they're entirely external to the player and not making the player feel scared. In other word, a lot of these are thing that might be mean to the PCs, but don't evoke horror in the players at all. I don't really care if the PC's are told they are scared. [LIST] [*] [/LIST] Nothing to do with horror. Enables no horror tropes. Horror does not involve progression. [LIST] [*] [/LIST] This is, at best, neutral to horror, in that not giving PCs magic swords retains the status quo, whereas having magic swords strongly enables PCs to effectively fight horror. [LIST] [*] [/LIST] Entirely orthogonal to horror -- what horror trope is enabled by subclasses? [LIST] [*] [/LIST] You've finally caught something in your wide net that can enable horror in 5e, and it's something a huge number of tables ignore. [LIST] [*] [/LIST] This could also go to horror, but does so by taking things away from PCs, usually, which also acknowledges that the base 5e system assumptions need to be changed to enable horror. Yes, if you're changing rules, you're not using 5e anymore, you're using a customized variant of 5e. If it's those exact customizations that are enabling horror then it's not 5e that's enabling horror, it's your customizations. Any system can be customized, so easier than others, so this cannot be a strength of 5e to do horror. Saying, "5e does horror great! You just have to change it so it can do horror," is just not a great argument that 5e does horror well. The focus on combat in 5e, for instance, I've already shown multiple times cuts against horror tropes by making fighting a horror a procedural thing with limited outcomes. 5e is bad for horror -- the system does absolutely nothing to enable horror and often fights against it. Which is why most of the advice in this thread for horror is to do things that have nothing to do with the system, and, when they do, it's to change the system. That you claim these non-system elements and the ability to change 5e's rules where they conflict with horror as strengths of 5e is baffling -- it's your strength as a GM to set mood and describe things that are scary, not 5e's. It's your strength as a GM to note the places 5e has issues and change them to enable your game, not 5e's. I don't understand why you're so eager to take the things you're strong at and gift them to 5e. I do not understand the need to defend 5e against any and all criticism. It's a great game, I love it. It's not perfect, even at what it does well, and it doens't do everything well. D&D's biggest strength is in doing D&D. It's okay if it's not great at other things. You can absolutely do horror in 5e, but you're working around the system to do it, not with it. You have to make changes, both to how you present the game and to the rules of the game. It's telling that no one suggests running 5e with no options and no rules changes and no special setting rules as a good horror game. This clearly shows that vanilla 5e is bad at horror. There are a few optional switches you can throw that help, but you are still going to require some house rules or setting rule changes to get close, and then you're still going to have to work around the system. [/QUOTE]
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